HOPEPUNK - Safeguarding Democracy in Europe with Omri Preiss of Alliance4Europe

00:00:00: And so for me, this is very personal.

00:00:02: I think in the sense that my idea of what the darkness looks like... ...is not some abstract thing for me and i'm NOT telling myself it couldn't happen!

00:00:13: A lot people just have a mechanism where they rationalize or sort-of equivocate Yeah but its probably not going to be that bad You know?

00:00:22: That's an e-jerk reaction that lots of people have that I just for whatever reason I don't have that reaction, and just go oh well it really could get that bad so let's make sure it doesn't.

00:00:31: You know like i've heard the stories...I wasn't there but i-i don't want to live through it!

00:00:36: So lets try and prevent it yeah?

00:00:39: is Hopepunk.

00:00:58: Pass it on!

00:01:00: Now, Grimdark is a particularly dystopian subgenre of science fiction and Hopepunk doesn't negate that dystopia exists but says in the face of it choose hope anyway – In A World That Is Unkind Just Being Kind In Itself As A Radical Act.

00:01:16: And while some would want to make us believe otherwise, Hopepunk is everywhere.

00:01:21: That's why it is my intention with this podcast to shine a light on the people, projects and spaces that embody hope-inspired action every day.

00:01:30: What Is The Meaning Of Hope For Us Personally In The Face of Illness or Loss for instance?

00:01:36: And Given The Current State Of The World How Does Help Or The Lack Thereof Shape Our Politics & Society?

00:01:43: My guest today is Omri Price.

00:01:45: Omri is Managing Director at Alliance.

00:01:49: We co-founded in twenty eighteen, In light of the rise of anti democratic populist movements all across Europe ahead Of the European elections of twenty nineteen.

00:01:59: Since then he and The team have grown the organization into a relevant player And their european democracy space.

00:02:06: He is one of those people who work tirelessly to make Europe more Democratic and accountable To its citizens.

00:02:12: it holds a master's degree in European policy.

00:02:19: He's worked in the European Parliament and for human rights and sustainability organizations, on campaigning an advocacy.

00:02:27: Omri embodies hope-punk to me because he works tirelessly for positive change in light of many challenges European democracy is faced with.

00:02:37: and works within the existing political system to make things better.

00:02:55: Thank you very much for being here, Omri!

00:02:58: It's a pleasure.

00:02:58: thank-you for having me on...

00:03:00: Thank-you

00:03:00: For that wonderful introduction.

00:03:04: What is your take on hope?

00:03:08: That'a good question.

00:03:11: I think Hope as a motivator You need to as a living organism that needs the.

00:03:17: you know find light and food and sustenance in all of it.

00:03:44: You will be able to shape the reality that you want to live in, That you need to live and then go out there into the world.

00:03:52: And get.

00:03:52: what do we need from it?

00:03:55: From this very biological needs also comes all of our visions stories and beliefs as individuals or society.

00:04:08: As you said in your introduction, yes there are dark things out there and terrible thing that happen to the world.

00:04:14: There's lots of things we should be very worried about but if what we need do is take action then we can achieve a better reality.

00:04:28: so hope.

00:04:29: I think it not some kind naive just opinion or view, or expectation.

00:04:38: I think that's not it!

00:04:40: Or at least its' not a very useful aspect of the more useful and relevant and necessary side-of hope... ...or the kind of hope i'm talking about is motivation to go out & make things better To have maybe vision what that better thing looks like And then going out to get it.

00:05:04: It's kind of like, you know if...to go back to the animal analogy You're a deer out in the forest or bear Or wolf or whatever and I really need that Juicy next meal whether your are herbivore or carnivore.

00:05:21: Tell yourself okay?

00:05:22: i'm gonna Go and Get it!

00:05:24: I Need To Go And Get That Thing That I Need With Human Beings Being more sophisticated in how we view things.

00:05:34: There is this famous speech of Martin Luther King, I have a dream that Marshall Gantz from Harvard who's done a lot narrative development work also talks about the fact there isn't just a dream and that speech but also nightmare.

00:05:51: so going from dark grim place to danger to then have a dream, go towards you know what is that sort of image Of the better world we want live in.

00:06:08: So To me hope Is wanting be aware and avoid That nightmare scenario In order take action And build The scenario We want to live in Better World.

00:06:24: Thank You very much!

00:06:28: during one of the first general assemblies, of The Political Movement for Europa.

00:06:34: And ended up later that year co-founding Alliance For Europe and I think One Of The Things We Connected Over was That Feeling Of You Know... Europe Could Go Either Way.

00:06:46: It Could either Turn Into This Vision That i Believe That we Share Of A Democratic Pluralistic Europe As it Is Laid Out In The Treaties Or It Could Slide into Authoritarianism.

00:06:57: So how does your vision of hope, like... Does your understanding of Hope feed into the work that you now do with Alliance for Europe?

00:07:06: What exactly does Alliance Do and How does Your Understanding Of Hope Feed Into Your Work There.

00:07:15: Again a good question And some things to unpack.

00:07:19: Indeed when we met I think A lot People woke up To Exactly This Scenario.

00:07:28: We're sliding towards authoritarianism and populism, this reality that we don't want to live in.

00:07:38: In a way we use these big words but you know what I've also figured out more over time is that we should use really like very blunt sort of unlaundered or academic words.

00:07:52: Authoritarianism means someone comes and takes your freedom away.

00:07:57: It means that you don't have a choice on what you want to do with your life.

00:08:01: it means, That You Don't Have The Agency To Make Your Own Life Better Or To Determine The Lives Of Your Children or Someone Comes In An Unmarked Van And Just Takes You Away Like.

00:08:14: That's What Authoritarianism Really Means.

00:08:16: When We Talk About Populism we're really talking about people lying People just manipulating you in order to develop these kind of Cult these cult political bodies that then put a leader in charge who can then oppress other people.

00:08:33: so we're talking about this and kind of an academic words, but making it really visceral for People I think is important.

00:08:42: And with Alliance For Europe what?

00:08:45: We recognize Is That if we want to live In A Prosperous Successful Democratic Europe where everyone has freedom and opportunity in all those nice things.

00:08:56: And we want to avoid the situation of a dictator taking everybody's freedom away, um... We need people to be active!

00:09:05: We need People To Stand Up!

00:09:07: We Need People To Go Out To Vote!

00:09:09: We Need People To Participate In Campaigns That Shape The Public Agenda.

00:09:18: We set up the organization, as you mentioned to really drive voter turnout and connect all different parts of society together.

00:09:27: Whether it's non-profit organizations or media or academia Or business To join up strategically to be able to turn out Europeans to vote.

00:09:41: And then we developed that.

00:09:46: there is quite a lot of this whole society approach, as it's called to bring together.

00:09:52: So on the one side of the organization we work on what do The Bad Guys Do right?

00:09:59: It actually connects that grim and dark versus hope punk

00:10:07: Bad guys in this case being enemies of democracy.

00:10:10: Yeah, enemies of Democracy which you know that they're very cell They are very conscious Very calculated enemies of the democracy is not a coincidence?

00:10:19: They really do believe what they believed.

00:10:21: so You know we're talking about the Russian government.

00:10:23: We're talking a bunch of other authoritarian governments like North Korea Iran China etc..we're talking oligarchs that are affiliated with these.

00:10:35: We're talking about the MAGA dark enlightenment movement, you know?

00:10:41: The Dark Enlightenment basically is a tech bro term for like bringing back medieval times.

00:10:48: basically and These guys run influence operations.

00:10:54: You know the Russian government has this entire infrastructure of different disinformation campaigns known to people work in the field as influence operations where they have a vast infrastructure, fake accounts, fake websites bought farms troll farms different ways of manipulating algorithms.

00:11:15: Different channels and influencers and you know consultancy firms that are based here and there everywhere.

00:11:23: And what we do is We bring together open source intelligence analysts and researchers civil society, journalists, academics etc.

00:11:34: We expose these and then we see how can we break this up?

00:11:38: How can you block them off?

00:11:41: so that... ...we look for the tactical vulnerabilities, we look at their infrastructure.. ..we look at EU sanction enforcement, we looked at the Digital Services Act which is a piece of EU legislation….

00:11:54: …which was very important in defending all our rights And so on and so forth.

00:12:00: So this is one side of the organization which we call The Red Side, the red team because We look at what the bad guys do.

00:12:07: it's kind Of security type thinking.

00:12:09: then On the other hand?

00:12:10: We have as a blue Team or they are there to decide where we empower the good Guys sort of speak that our guys and goals course.

00:12:18: so The Blue Machine looks At.

00:12:22: how Do We Connect an Empower Campaigners?

00:12:24: How Do We Enable These democracy defenders to be more effective so that we bring together advocacy and lobbying efforts on behalf of European civil society.

00:12:37: on behalf of all these groups to have more impact so that we mobilize people, turn out and vote in elections.

00:12:48: We run campaigns that are civil society campaigns.

00:12:53: then whole-of-society campaigns really define the agenda.

00:12:59: There is this mirror getting away from the bad nightmare towards hope or dream.

00:13:08: We recognize that in order to manifest hope, we really need the whole of society approach.

00:13:14: Right?

00:13:14: We need different parts working together and thats why this broad mandate is a strategic connector where we bring together networks for impact.

00:13:26: That's what we do at The Core.

00:13:29: When you say bringing together networks For Impact I mean a lot of time civil society is mentioned as sector That is not influential, that has somehow vested interest in public debate.

00:13:46: It seems like sometimes the framing is such but I think two of us know that civil society actually a key player and European democracy And you have with Alliance for Europe also been involved in networking a lot of civil society actors from all across Europe to work on very concrete projects.

00:14:09: Would you perhaps want to tell us a little bit more about one of those networks?

00:14:15: For instance, the Democratic Tech Alliance or whatever you would like... Sure!

00:14:18: So yeah I think there are quite a few different misconceptions.

00:14:23: maybe when we're talking about civil society it can mean Basically, when people get active they want to get involved in campaigning whether it's at your neighborhood level or the national level.

00:14:39: Or European-level civil society is a term for active citizenship on one hand.

00:14:47: On other hand we're also just talking about non-profit sectors.

00:14:51: Alliance For Europe We are not an unprofit company GGMBH where German listeners were registered.

00:14:59: We have non-profit status, we work with a lot of other organizations that are nonprofits.

00:15:05: And when we talk about civil society in that sense... ...we're basically talking about nonprofits at the time right?

00:15:13: In a way there is this big public narrative about lobbying in Brussels The Big Tech Lobby and all these corporate lobbies That do exercise power & influence.

00:15:28: But the non-profit lobby, it's not much advertised that it actually has a massive amount of impact at a fraction of the costs.

00:15:40: So big tech is spending hundreds of millions of euros literally hundreds of million on shaping the agenda whether its Google which was very large scale lobbyist operation Meta and all the big ones.

00:15:55: just think about company.

00:15:57: they're there.

00:15:58: Civil society will often have nonprofits, we'll all be running campaigns that are at a fraction of the price.

00:16:08: So tens or hundreds and thousands of euros they will beat hands down!

00:16:14: We've gotten points across big tech... cannot, or you know the big tech has their impact with lots of money.

00:16:23: We have a lot of impact with less money and we managed to shape the agenda massively.

00:16:29: I'm not just talking about Alliance for Europe but about the sector.

00:16:32: so i think when a lot people kind of despair go oh well you know that whole thing is bought by corporate lobbies Like, no you can make a huge amount of difference by being at the right place.

00:16:44: At the right time with the right expertise... ...with the right information and also there is a premium on being one of the good guys-and-goals so to speak.

00:16:53: because You know A lot of politicians are there for the right reasons And they do want the pro European agenda.

00:16:59: They do want, you know, European tech sovereignty.

00:17:01: They don't want AI that doesn't abuse their children And when you're there with a solution, they do want to listen.

00:17:10: It's not magic.

00:17:11: it is about human work and effort but really works.

00:17:15: so then we get something like the democratic tech alliance where are talking about interesting convergence of different actors coming together or set up with partners at the European Parliament.

00:17:31: And actually, next week we have this Democratic Tech Alliance Assembly in Brussels where... We've brought together businesses you know, European small and medium-sized enterprises some major companies that participated a lot of non profit organizations The Commons Network Alliance for Europe as well Of course and quite few others coming together with media organizations, with academia.

00:18:00: Think tanks and together with members of the European Parliament from across the democratic political groups.

00:18:07: so everyone from The Christian Democrats a so-called EPP in the European parliament.

00:18:13: that's the biggest family... Biggest grouping.

00:18:16: let say at the center right you have the social democrats where You know?

00:18:20: That name is familiar on the Center Left!

00:18:22: You Have the Liberals So called Renew Europe that you have the greens and those are like, the main four democratic groups.

00:18:31: And we have MEPs represented from all of those!

00:18:36: The idea is really to shape the agenda for Europe's tech future.

00:18:41: so... We're talking about the Tech Sovereignty Package coming out soon published by the Commission with a lot on cloud infrastructure, for example.

00:18:54: There is a lot on how to enforce the Digital Services Act and How To Defend Democracy With The EU Democracy Shield.

00:19:02: there Is The EU Budgets The Multi-Annual Financial Framework And Has A Fantastically Long And Attractive Name.

00:19:10: But That Is A Huge Amount Of Money That The EU Will Be Spending In The Next Seven Years?

00:19:14: And How Does That Strengthen Our Digital Democracy?

00:19:18: that's Extremely Important And by bringing together all of these really important elements across decision-makers with all of the stakeholders shaping an agenda, we can act together.

00:19:32: We can build majorities that then win votes and give national leaders at.

00:19:43: So when you get out of Brussels and the national leaders having to make a decision on these things, also hopefully we can build up political capital for those decisions.

00:19:56: Because I think it's important too understand that what is happening in Brussels obviously as intended by European project very closely tied.

00:20:11: It's not this rogue space.

00:20:14: Exactly, and I think especially if we were talking about who might be listening to the podcast... If you don't work in politics but watch the news following what happens politically It often sounds like in the national news as if you have Brussels and then, you know... The National Governments are sort of far removed or something.

00:20:42: but actually that's not really how it is.

00:20:44: You know all of the national governments are continuously represented and working day-in they out through the embassies here in Brussels Or what called the permanent representations.

00:20:56: And so the governments are constantly working at developing these common positions, right?

00:21:03: So you have this constant exchange within the Brussels ecosystem but also with a national level.

00:21:12: Constantly putting this policy together and our challenge is to engage not just people in Brussels But the different capitals Paris Berlin Vilnius Rome Copenhagen etc.

00:21:27: There's alot of them.

00:21:28: That's a challenge and it is one of those less appreciated elements of European politics, let us say.

00:21:37: One of the conversations we had ahead this conversation was you said that one thing gives your hope is integrity as choice.

00:21:47: there

00:21:47: are people going into politics not just individual interests but actually interest in European democracy at heart.

00:21:57: Can you elaborate on what you mean by that?

00:21:59: Yeah, I think this is again something with us.

00:22:03: With Alliance for Europe doing certain amounts of advocacy and lobbying agenda-setting convening partners.

00:22:13: You see the mechanics how decisions are taken.

00:22:18: It's also something i brought in my experience working previously In European Parliament.

00:22:24: So seeing these things close up And often in the public perception, there's this view that lobbying happens and so some kind of like fairy dust.

00:22:35: Politicians come in... Some lobbyist comes in and sprinkles some fairy dust on them and boom!

00:22:40: Like suddenly a some corporate lobby has gotten you know some great benefit but actually A lot.

00:22:48: it is just very democratic need for information.

00:22:54: So if your decision maker that has a speech in one hour, or needs to submit amendments to the law by X deadline.

00:23:04: You just need know stuff you might not find out... ...you're sitting at your office and don't know all of much about this world which isn't happening right?

00:23:14: So like any of us!

00:23:15: And

00:23:16: it's not enough for Google

00:23:18: Yeah, I mean it's a very human thing right?

00:23:21: All of us are kind of sitting where we are and you see what use have out-of-your-windows so to speak.

00:23:27: And a lot of the time.

00:23:29: You just need that information...you need that input!

00:23:32: That is the basis that lobbying an advocacy Is based on at most fundamental level.

00:23:38: Now A lot politicians and public officials Genuinely do want To well in their job.

00:23:46: They actually believe and work on the values that they have.

00:23:51: It's not all doom-and-gloom out there, like a sellout territory.

00:23:57: we often kind of imagine if you just read the news... Having worked in politics and this kind of advocacy I've seen again is indeed it is choice.

00:24:12: Integrity is a choice when you come as politician or public official and you have your room to manoeuvre, what you want to represent... ...and what you wanna pursue at the end of day comes down into your own sense.

00:24:33: You know?

00:24:34: What do you wanna see in mirror when wake up morning?

00:24:37: Same goes, obviously for representatives of civil society organizations.

00:24:41: Yeah

00:24:42: the same goes to representatives of Civil Society Organizations.

00:24:45: Of course it goes to any one of us but I think that It's sort of an underappreciated fact when we look at politics and We see all those scandals out there And especially now we have you know much more color colorful and more odious characters That are unfortunately in the headlines all time And some of them are the color orange.

00:25:09: But anyway, I think it's easy to kind of lose track of this fact that... This is all human and a lot of time when i've worked in Brussels I've helped certain groups come in for meetings, whether civil society non-profit groups or even school kids that came to visit from out of town.

00:25:31: when you're working at the European Parliament.

00:25:32: And people are surprised once they do get into a meeting... Oh!

00:25:37: I didn't realize it would be so easy.

00:25:39: just go to the commission and have a meeting with them And it's like, well yeah.

00:25:43: It's just people doing things you know and a lot of the time People have good intentions.

00:25:49: in a lot Of The Time they want to do A Good Job and They're Looking For The Information and Whether They Want To Serve Some Kind Of Corporate Interest or whether They Want to Follow What They Think Is Right Based on some Moral Compass is Really Just Their Choice.

00:26:06: You Know Like There Is Not Some kind of magic that makes it happen and if people choose to do the band, they're less good.

00:26:15: That's often a choice And there are obviously different world views as well.

00:26:21: If you want to get more political about it You know some people do believe that deregulating is how to achieve a better goal.

00:26:28: Yeah, it's not all black and white

00:26:30: good bad kind of thing right?

00:26:32: Like a lot people will yeah exactly like but within... But what you see with something like the Democratic Tech Alliance And The Approach That Alliance for Europe Wants To Take Is that we're not partisans.

00:26:43: so in terms Of We're Not Party Political.

00:26:46: We Want To Have That Conversation With People That Are Willing To have a genuine conversation about it.

00:26:55: So we will have people from further to the right who will genuinely believe like big corporates are the way to go, I believe that we should enable them to scale.

00:27:06: i believe That We Should deregulate Etc etc.

00:27:10: and then you Will Have Someone Who's Maybe In The Greens Or You Know They're Like Further Left Of The Social Democrats Kind of Saying No!

00:27:18: I Don't Think We Should Look At These Business Models?

00:27:21: look at smaller collaborative type business models or, you know, emphasize open source.

00:27:28: And yes we need this these and these regulations

00:27:31: etc.,

00:27:31: etc.. Then You can have a meaningful debate about it right?

00:27:35: Uh...and you Can bring in academia!

00:27:37: You can Bring in

00:27:38: media!!

00:27:38: You can bring in businesses that actually Have an interest & have a stake but are playing by the rules and you can have A really interesting conversation.

00:27:48: But once Once you have actors that don't accept the rules of the game in a democracy, or maybe are zigzagging through for whichever interests then obviously it becomes less productive to have that conversation.

00:28:06: Yeah I think its worth at this point noting how going back to the beginnings of Alliance For Europe making that point is nonpartisan.

00:28:15: we were twenty five co-founders who came from all over the EU, all over Europe.

00:28:21: Some of us had founded civil society organizations before.

00:28:25: others have worked as you know in European Parliament and for human rights organization.

00:28:32: such other has a business background by no means where all of us politically aligned, but one thing we did agree on and where we did see a need to shape this new organization that became Alliance for Europe.

00:28:49: And which you have been at the helm over the past eight years was... The fact That We Need To... Yeah I know is that um ...we need to safeguard democracy as a space.

00:29:03: yeah try to protect the public space in Which Democracy Takes Place

00:29:09: Yeah, and we almost really didn't even try to align politically in any kind of partisan way.

00:29:16: Because you know... We basically didn't need to go through that because everyone just agreed on the fundamentals.

00:29:26: with Sonia who was director before me.

00:29:29: she always said this is article two of The Treaty On European Union which basically the line where it says, The union is organized around these values of democracy human rights to rule

00:29:41: of law

00:29:42: pluralism and tolerance.

00:29:45: And uh at the right of minority any equality between men and women.

00:29:50: that's like I read a text recently so fresh in my head but anyway so these fundamentals are fundamental values.

00:30:00: the reality of being attacked by autocrats and dictators in it creates a large tent politically, but it also shrinks.

00:30:14: The type of things that you need to agree on?

00:30:17: right because In order to oppose Putin or opposed Trump You don't need to Agree On the nitty gritty of market regulation or to agree on the nitty gritty of specific policy areas, you need to agree that freedom and democracy are required in order to have a prosperous society.

00:30:42: And so... To have these nitty-gritty discussions in first place?

00:30:46: Exactly!

00:30:47: So then you create a big tent by reducing number things which we need to agreed upon sort of a method to that, then also being able to bring in more actors.

00:31:05: That have different kinds of capacity for different things right?

00:31:08: So you have non-profits You have communicators ,you have researchers .You Have different types Of people who all have role To play In the value chain of democratic action.

00:31:22: You know using hope punk as a frame sort of.

00:31:24: you know the science fiction background.

00:31:27: Yeah, it's easy to talk about.

00:31:28: The good guys and the bad guys but you know It's messy.

00:31:32: in reality.

00:31:34: Hopepunk is also all about being messy and hope, being messy.

00:31:38: Hope being something that you can activate in dark times—that can be activated in dark time particularly then.

00:31:45: And how far would say?

00:31:47: it's fair to say we are actually at this point where democracy versus authoritarianism?

00:31:54: Is what we're talking here?

00:31:58: Yeah, my answer is yes.

00:32:01: A categorical Yes.

00:32:03: I would recommend some books that help put this into perspective

00:32:09: which i will link in the show notes?

00:32:24: less tolerant, more tolerant views of the world.

00:32:28: And they have maybe legitimate grievances over all kinds right?

00:32:32: So what I'm trying to say is not to generalize about people who have opinions in a public sphere.

00:32:40: there are People In very powerful positions Who do Not think that democracy Is A good idea And they are fighting a real hybrid war against the freedoms and things that we hold dear.

00:32:58: This is Vladimir Putin, his regime... That's one very dominant and powerful player here!

00:33:06: Then you have all of these types called themselves illiberal as kind-of-a cover The illiberal democracy, the Orban type.

00:33:21: Exactly it's the Orbonn type but basically a way of making a mess on discussion.

00:33:29: Victor

00:33:29: Orban being the former prime minister of Hungary.

00:33:32: Thankfully he is the former Prime Minister of Hungary.

00:33:34: But I mean Illiberal just means a dictator style... oligarchy with some nuances, right?

00:33:42: So you don't fully become a complete dictator but you kind of put enough of your friends in power that like no one can remove you.

00:33:49: But the result is eventually the same and You have... The MAGA Americanized Version Of This Russian Autocracy.

00:34:03: Is Peter Thiel Going Around Talking About the Antichrist, I mean i recommend just listening to an hour of Peter Thiel on a podcast.

00:34:15: You put his name into Spotify and listen for as long you can bear it!

00:34:25: It's very intellectually incoherent but very sprawling.

00:34:30: like he really does think things you know the formula doesn't quite add up but it is there.

00:34:36: He basically

00:34:36: says that freedom and democracy, what does he say?

00:34:40: Democracy is

00:34:40: incompatible with...

00:34:42: Freedom!

00:34:43: So yes so democracy has become incompatable with human progress and real freedom.

00:34:50: I think it's important to understand that there is a real force out there and they really do have things, which entails taking away our freedoms.

00:35:04: As Elon Musk tweeted when he got fined by the European Commission chair of Russia.

00:35:18: Elon Musk said the EU should be dismantled and power should be handed back to the national states, pretty much that formulation in that sentence.

00:35:29: And Medvedev tweeted it back.

00:35:32: I agree!

00:35:34: That basically shows you kind where we're at.

00:35:38: there is a really good book by Timothy Snyder who's one kind of thinkers on this in the world today.

00:35:46: The name of the book is The Road to Unfreedom.

00:35:49: and what he does in that book, his... He really illustrates how Putin's current regime is connected with early twentieth century white Russian fascism.

00:36:03: so there were these fascist philosophers who are reading Mussolini.

00:36:08: They wrote books about how Mussolini's fascism should apply to Russia in the view of like, the whites.

00:36:16: The Tsarist Russians taking back control from Bolsheviks and this fascist Russian thinking tumbling through the ages.

00:36:27: you know that he goes through a whole lineage but really informs Putin's thinking.

00:36:32: now where Putin sees The Soviet Union was this great Russian Empire and the tradition of Great Russian Imperialism that is connected to the Russian Orthodox Church, where Russia has this divine role in the world.

00:36:51: Jerusalem, Rome & Moscow... That kind of triangle!

00:36:55: It's up to Moscow to protect these Christian nationalist values.

00:37:01: And on and on it goes.

00:37:03: On, obviously as part of all that Putin and the oligarchs can take all of wealth off state to steal money they can.

00:37:14: That's Russian side.

00:37:20: If you go back to Ayn Rand a philosopher who had some interesting things Yeah, exactly.

00:37:31: Originally a Jewish American woman who wrote some books about the power of the individual and how this kind of very talented people should shape the world by just being extremely talented and extremely selfish.

00:37:50: you know that we are born alone We die alone And society in history is shaped by these really powerful, amazing people who just have all the capacity and they should go out be themselves.

00:38:04: Be great!

00:38:05: Society should basically serve these great people And you should just go out to become a Randian hero.

00:38:15: That thinking had massive amount of traction in the eighties and nineties and two-thousands with the whole financial services industry Silicon Valley Reagan neoliberalism that morphed and morphed, kind of wolf off Wall Street.

00:38:33: And the whole startup boom in this kind of captains industry thing.

00:38:39: It has morphed merged with science fiction thinking which again connects to.

00:38:52: You have all of these visions, you know people like Elon Musk.

00:38:56: People like Peter Thiel and others that want to go to Mars... ...that wants an intergalactic species and

00:39:04: colonized

00:39:05: space in it.

00:39:06: And what Peter Thiele says?

00:39:09: he basically says look I've seen the movies, and it's twenty-twenty six now.

00:39:16: We're supposed to have flying cars and flying skateboards in lasers and shit but we don't like.

00:39:21: what do we have instead?

00:39:22: Like all of these smartphones things that are much less interesting than spaceships.

00:39:28: And why is that?

00:39:30: It's because we've degenerated, We have decomposed as a society.

00:39:48: Overachieving man-man, but we've focused on empowering all the weaklings and all the terrible people like you know women And this and minorities.

00:39:58: And so yeah, I'm paraphrasing him right?

00:40:05: Yeah These are just one to me.

00:40:07: This is a regeneration of a type of Nazism basically.

00:40:12: So we've stagnated We stopped achieving things.

00:40:17: hold your breath, is the Antichrist.

00:40:20: Right?

00:40:21: And in order to combat The Antichrists we need to overthrow democracy, overthrow woke culture and political correctness on all of these things.

00:40:38: Thank you for bringing up these connections, because I think it goes back also to another important point of scholars describing these movements that are sometimes hard-to-grasp.

00:40:50: Like what you just described feels so out of... So sci-fi and a lot of the times so unreal.

00:41:00: but there are some very smart people looking at this academically, Karen Howe.

00:41:08: She is a very renowned journalist.

00:41:13: she wrote a book called Empire of AI and I know she also spoke in the European Parliament a few weeks back you were in a hearing with her.

00:41:21: there's another article that i will link to show notes by Timnit Gebru who wrote an article along with other researchers about this so-called Tesquil Bundle which elaborates on what.

00:41:35: But basically, going back to the sci-fi element of this because a discussion in European politics for a long time has been Europe needs narrative.

00:41:47: And I think hope punk or just futures oriented thinking is about imagination but opening up spaces for possibilities about imagining.

00:41:58: positive visions are from our perspective, positive visions on what the future could look like.

00:42:04: And a lot of this thinking, Peter Teals and Elon Musk's but also Sam Altman is the inevitability paradigm right now that they're trying to tell us there only one way to think progress.

00:42:20: There an inevitable path towards a dystopian kind future.

00:42:26: so how do we reopen space toward positive visions?

00:42:31: Do you know what I'm trying to ask?

00:42:34: Yeah, i-i-I Know What You're Trying To Say And I think it's a really big and important question.

00:42:40: And again yeah Peter Thiel has just been like one Very Bizarre and very kind of Outstanding Exponent Here.

00:42:48: But I mean We Could Also Talk About bannon in his thinking and some Of the others.

00:42:52: so you know Like we can't we don't have to.

00:42:55: It's all Kind of Shades of Different Types of Extremism and So on but I Think that We need to be able to call bullshit on a lot of this.

00:43:07: There is another book that I wanted to recommend, it's called Autocracy Inc.

00:43:11: by Ann Applebaum which was great and her work is also really fundamental for understanding all these things And she outlines how business model is a grift.

00:43:24: All the big ideas we're talking about at end-of-the day are being used in order make money for these people, whether it's Putin and his oligarchs or Bano and his oligarchs.

00:43:36: Netanyahu is cronies Trump in his cronys like its a grift on the religion and religiosity And the sci-fi and mysticism and ideology.

00:43:48: A lot of this cover For this autocracy Inc.

00:43:53: business model which makes money.

00:43:56: Now to get To get to your question of how do we open up the future on this?

00:44:01: A lot is just calling bullshit and basically saying thank you very much.

00:44:07: but no, thank you.

00:44:08: And not getting lost I think we liberals and we Democrats wherever we are in a democratic spectrum We have academic degrees interesting intellectual discussions, we like to be right intellectually about the points that were trying make.

00:44:25: That's a saying sort of makes us tick and it is this thing... Don't

00:44:28: know what you're talking about!

00:44:29: We are trained because people who have gone through school or used to exams writing papers proving our point being right need go with them.

00:44:42: We need to think much more in terms of how do we gain power and how did we exercise our power.

00:44:50: Power or influence?

00:44:52: Both!

00:44:52: Power, power

00:44:53: & influence.

00:44:55: because... ...we need power in order to secure our freedom.. ..and design a better world

00:45:02: right?!

00:45:02: And so that's one side-of.

00:45:06: it is what the democratic... movement camp, etc.

00:45:10: needs to do is and that's also what Alliance for Europe tries To Do when we decide strategically where to deploy Where are the buttons?

00:45:19: That We need to push in order to win The struggle For this point?

00:45:23: or at Point where Is the power leverage?

00:45:26: And that's where we try to mobilize and make the most difference that we can once liberated ourselves by calling bullshit and saying thank you very much Mr.

00:45:41: Trump, Mr.

00:45:42: Teal etc.

00:45:43: we recognize that for what it is.

00:45:45: We can then talk about the future on our own terms right?

00:45:52: We want a free inclusive society where women are free as people in society to have equal rights and all of those things.

00:46:05: We do not want the ethnicity or color skin, religion or sexuality in gender orientation to determine what a person is their life right?

00:46:17: we won't freedom just for rich white men but other people too!

00:46:23: And...we know that freedom looks like because you go into good gay pride parade.

00:46:31: You know, it's a great liberating moment for people.

00:46:35: You go to festivals out there or you think about any of the cultural moments of a liberal democracy nowadays.

00:46:47: A Glastonbury festival... Whatever!

00:46:51: That is kind of free society.

00:46:54: World cup?

00:46:55: The world cup has also been bought over but like... But I mean, you can think of the kind of economic opportunity that people want to have so that... You know.

00:47:10: You can buy a house and start your family or afford those things but be better off than what your parents were which is something no longer the case for future generations.

00:47:21: So we need produce these visions on our own terms, and to then try also design the technology.

00:47:36: And political processes that enable this happen right?

00:47:40: So if we want an inclusive society We don't need to apologize for what has been labeled bulk whatever you know like.

00:47:51: we need think about how make messaging more effective because maybe progressives have not been as effective communicating that set of values, which sort of enabled the far right to come in and poke holes at it.

00:48:07: And progressives maybe haven't focused their energies on the most productive ways around this.

00:48:13: but we shouldn't kind.

00:48:15: woke is now passe, and like it's fine to be a misogynist again.

00:48:21: Okay I can make inappropriate jokes whatever which kind of you know for a little while after the Trump re-election sort that felt what was happening whereas we need to define our future on our own terms and stories in their own terms The way to open up From some of the crap that we are seeing out there and really focus in on what we find valuable.

00:48:48: Yeah, I feel it's also about something about redefining strength.

00:48:52: right now i feel like It's not just being better than The other or on top Of the Other but actually...I think That We Are Probably Aligned On The Idea that strong democratic pluralistic societies make for stronger democracies, which makes for stronger mandates.

00:49:14: Which makes for a stronger... you know just stronger nations within the stronger EU!

00:49:23: Yeah no absolutely and this

00:49:26: not being a contradiction right?

00:49:29: Absolutely I think Ukraine is fighting for freedom.

00:49:35: that Ukrainians have been incredibly courageously waging in the last four and a bit years now really illustrates this.

00:49:44: It really illustrates what you have at stake, right?

00:49:50: What does it mean to have a dictatorship invade and try take over your country?

00:50:04: and can actually resist, and can innovate.

00:50:07: And where people are motivated to fight for something... Of course fighting a war is extremely brutal and difficult.

00:50:17: I don't want to oversimplify it or anything but you do see that You have free people who are innovative resourceful That find out how to fight.

00:50:30: On the other hand brutal dictatorship that is like a machine just sort of grinding people down.

00:50:39: And it keeps going back to the point you made in the beginning, it's about kidnap children and killings... It's dark!

00:50:47: Very very dark.

00:50:50: Yeah absolutely And I think a lot...I mean, whenever i come in contact with that.

00:50:59: One of the things when The War started you know every so often and try to reconnect it some work we've done with Alliance for Europe because just kind of thread the needle bit also cause.

00:51:12: u asked me too but y'know In twenty-twenty two When The War Started We provided some immediate support helping kind of helping civil society organizations

00:51:25: to evacuate.

00:51:27: Yeah, with their colleague Maya like basically um helping to evacuate some children from the front lines and vulnerable people but at the very start of the war And then onwards you know speaking to Ukrainian partners and colleagues also that ones who are working in information integrity type work.

00:51:51: I just feel very humbled, every time you have this kind of more abstract discussion about how do we define our future and all these kinds things.

00:52:03: And then there are people that really is experiencing a viscerally excruciating struggle which is just concretely on their doorstep.

00:52:16: So yeah, it does remind you what's at stake and I think the kind of hope that Ukrainians have been able to generate... ...I've found really inspiring to say yes there IS this war we're fighting but hey!

00:52:33: We are innovating.

00:52:34: You talk to Ukrainian tech innovators And they were like Yeah we going Like yeah its happening where doing stuff And it's really like a no-hold bar sort of drive and that hope as well, I think for me.

00:52:49: Yeah also they're living their lives.

00:52:50: They're celebrating birthdays right raising children As you say innovating.

00:52:58: i don't know whether You would be willing to answer this question before we wrap up but in how far is This personal For you?

00:53:06: How far is it personal for me?

00:53:08: Yeah, It Is Personal For Me.

00:53:09: I mean obviously its professional in the sense that this kind of what i've decided to do In my day job and with Alliance for Europe you know really working To counter This Kind Of Rising Autocracy Day-In Day Out.

00:53:31: Its Just Something That I think Is Really Important And Someone Should Do So kind of what I found myself doing because that's basically been me trying to see and say to my self okay, What is the most important thing?

00:53:45: That i could do right now.

00:53:47: And if wasn't doing it at be kicking myself rather be like someone should do so might as well.

00:53:54: but yeah we have a lot really exciting and interesting people that we work with.

00:54:02: We have this network of more than a hundred ten organizations, four-hundred fifty people or so in the network working to counter these influence operations.

00:54:13: So it counts for disinformation network where.

00:54:17: That's how a lot of this infrastructure Of how These autocrats manipulate information space gets exposed And get broken up.

00:54:28: That's a very sort of technical description, but at the same time I see that by doing these things... ...I'm also trying to protect my own life.

00:54:40: Trying to protect the life that i want in my family and community To be living right?

00:54:47: It is a practical thing for me Having come from a family where my grandparents went through the Second World War, and survived that.

00:55:02: And growing up with it not being peace of history but something very real in daily life... ...and then growing into reality as a child in Israel when you have war… Not as distant things an ongoing presence, you really understand what the stakes are.

00:55:26: Because I think for a lot of Europeans there is no... West European at least maybe like former communist places it's different.

00:55:37: but For west europeans who were used to freedom and use to peace It kind of hard see how that could go away right?

00:55:48: Like if i speak too Dutch friends, British friends wherever they don't quite imagine.

00:55:58: They say yeah but I don't think it could ever really get that bad you know?

00:56:02: And its like... You dont have any control about how bad is gets once it starts getting that bad.

00:56:08: Once your broken through the security barriers and you're sort of tumbling over the rails down hill You don't know how bad it's gonna get, you know?

00:56:18: So you might as well not get there.

00:56:20: And so for me this is very personal.

00:56:23: I think in the sense that my idea of How like what the darkness looks Like Is Not Some Abstract Thing For Me and i'm not telling myself That It Couldn'T Happen.

00:56:36: I Think A Lot Of People Just Have This Mechanism Where They Sort Of Rationalize Or they sort of Equivocate.

00:56:42: Then They Go Yeah But Its Probably Not Gonna Be That Bad.

00:56:45: I think that's just a knee jerk reaction.

00:56:47: A lot of people have, but for whatever reason... ...I don't want to live through it so let's try and prevent it!

00:57:02: It is personal on this level

00:57:06: which makes me feel very personal.

00:57:09: Yeah, I guess so.

00:57:10: So yeah that's

00:57:14: one of the reasons why i think That you are hope punk.

00:57:17: really because You don't look away right?

00:57:20: You see The potential for darkness Having known what it could look like And your family and beyond.

00:57:29: and uh...you try to.

00:57:32: You know knowing that there are things that aren't going Right but you never give up on trying To change things For the better.

00:57:39: Yeah, and maybe I think that together with hope there is this word we haven't mentioned but it's a lot of opportunity.

00:57:51: We do have something to avoid at the same time which means you need to take action or create opportunities build a bigger house get the things you wanted like have their relationships, live laugh love whatever.

00:58:16: Sounds like

00:58:17: progress!

00:58:19: All of those things that I mean.

00:58:21: it's a bit cliche because we're so used to these American election campaigns and Hollywood movies but in reality People want to have a good life where they can spend time with their family, when things that they wanted do.

00:58:37: Where you could go on an hiking trip for the Andes or Himalayas and sit down and read a book if you want too!

00:58:46: At end of day I think... ...with hope comes opportunity we can really define and grab opportunities before us.

00:59:00: So it's not just darkness, I think there is a lot of light there too and for me that's also personal because i feel like you know building a better life starts here ,you know?

00:59:09: Absolutely!

00:59:11: Is there anything else you would like to say to the cynics or critics out there ?

00:59:16: Anything that you haven't so far?

00:59:20: The cynics and the critics...I think really does have an impact, even though it's a big picture out there.

00:59:36: People could say yeah but these are such big problems and how can you really solve them?

00:59:40: I think just walking into the room or with researchers that we work with like doing some open source research on finding out about this network is working very practically getting your hands dirty so to speak.

00:59:58: That already achieves a lot, you know.

01:00:00: so just kind of say it's big problem.

01:00:03: how do we solve?

01:00:04: that doesn't cut.

01:00:05: You can really do if u step in and there is no reason to be naive.

01:00:13: but being cynical is the luxury that we don't have, right?

01:00:19: So you can sit back and go yeah but how are going to do all of that in mind.

01:00:23: Well human nature always terrible... But at end of day yes it's well good.. The imperative what did I say about this?

01:00:33: You could be a cynic or critic unless want live in nuclear bunker in New Zealand on other side of world as you need figure out you do not have the luxury of NOT doing anything about it.

01:00:49: And that's, I think... The thing people also don't realize is yes everyone needs to pay their rent.

01:00:55: Yes Everyone has things they need to worry about in their day-to-day lives But these issues will impact all of us and what YOU DO ABOUT IT IN YOUR OWN LIFE Will be your problem whether you recognize or not.

01:01:07: So You have a responsibility towards this no matter who you are.

01:01:12: Word That brings me to my final question, Omri.

01:01:17: You are just finishing school today.

01:01:19: you were like eighteen or twenty years old in twenty-twenty six.

01:01:22: which advice would you give yourself?

01:01:25: Yeah finish it.

01:01:26: so there's a difference between I finished high school and gonna date myself here.

01:01:30: i finished High School in two thousand six.

01:01:34: that exactly twenty years ago.

01:01:37: There is A Difference Between Graduating In Two Thousand Six And Twenty Twenty Six.

01:01:44: The world is quite a bit different.

01:01:47: I think that the advice, That wouldn't maybe be cheesy Is to understand the value of growing assets.

01:02:06: It sounds like strange thing But you put your work and effort into something And make it grow in value like build things that matter and help them grow.

01:02:20: And I think, That's kind of what we have tried to do on What We've Done In A Way With Alliance For Europe?

01:02:30: It is a lot of successful business.

01:02:32: people who built companies understand you know Like You Have An Asset And Try To Grow The Value Of It.

01:02:41: But I think as a young person, it takes you awhile to get that logic because your kind of are used just doing stuff and making stuff work.

01:02:49: And so on.

01:02:50: but i think there is one of the powers we have humans living in our community assign value to things.

01:03:00: We build tools Make these institutions grow.

01:03:04: So like now with the Lions for Europe, we started out just as an idea.

01:03:09: Now we have a brand.

01:03:10: We haven't networked.

01:03:11: We have things that we've really developed.

01:03:13: We've had methodologies and all of this stuff.

01:03:17: And you don't want to Be doing things over-and-over again at the same level right?

01:03:24: You could build it ditch with With a shovel or you can get a bulldozer and build that ditch more effectively.

01:03:30: or you could drive over to the next town and rent an army of bulldozers, set up a construction site.

01:03:39: You can leverage alone from a bank to get a construction company

01:03:43: going.".

01:03:48: So I think if there was one thing that would actually tell young person graduating whether it's me like build up value.

01:04:03: And that could, you could also be creative and make art and write songs and then publish them and put them out into the world and they gain value that way.

01:04:11: but it's just thinking in that way of creation and value making is I think a really important thing.

01:04:18: sometimes its hard... You can be idealistic or forget about it.

01:04:24: so i would try to give advice.

01:04:27: maybe makes me sound old.

01:04:29: No,

01:04:30: it's wonderful.

01:04:31: The last person I had on the podcast Thomas Coombs.

01:04:33: he described himself as a gardener.

01:04:36: It is also about making things grow.

01:04:40: Thank you so much Omri!

01:04:46: That was Omri Preiss managing director of Alliance for Europe.

01:04:51: Omri sees hope as motivator and working towards more desirable future.

01:04:55: in context his work that means defending and strengthening democracy which is increasingly under threat and working to make our societies more resilient.

01:05:06: Omri is not naive, he takes nightmare scenarios very seriously but in light of these he dedicates himself to pursuing the dream of a democratic Europe that lives upto its values.

01:05:18: These values once at the European Union was founded upon are laid out an article two of The Treaty on European Union.

01:05:25: I quote freedom, democracy equality the rule of law and respect for human rights including The Rights Of Persons Belonging To Minorities.

01:05:39: These values are common to the member states.

01:05:42: in a society In Which Pluralism Non-Discrimination Tolerance Justice Solidarity And Equality Between Women And Men Prevail Is The EU Living Up To These Values?

01:05:54: Certainly Not.

01:05:56: It's Always Been Imperfect And Continues To Be So But it's the best answer anyone could come up with to ensure peaceful

01:06:03: coexistence

01:06:04: after The continent was ravaged by two world wars.

01:06:07: And every attack on these values, Every time we question whether women and men should be treated equally for instance is a direct Attack On the foundation of the European Union itself.

01:06:19: For european democracy To survive and to thrive, Omri says... to go out and vote, to organize around issues they care about.

01:06:30: And importantly we need an environment in which people are free-to do so without fear from repercussion.

01:06:36: Threats to the system are manifold – an alliance for Europe contributes to addressing them via their red & blue teams…and in tandem with many partners!

01:06:46: Their funding may be limited but work is impactful.

01:06:50: Check show notes to find more.

01:06:53: Thank you for listening today's episode of this podcast.

01:06:56: My name is Maite Schomburg and I look forward to welcoming you again next time.

01:07:01: Goodbye!