HOPEPUNK - Hope-Based Communications and Hopepunk Politics, with Thomas Coombes

00:00:00: And so I think that's really helpful for us who want to be changemakers.

00:00:03: Really, it is like... ...I would call hope-punk politics or a real activism based on hope-punk which if we have an idea of how we want things to be Can we think about small actions and experiences?

00:00:15: Rituals maybe.

00:00:16: That bring the identity into life.

00:00:18: You know people can only have an identity If they are living in experiencing them.

00:00:22: So human beings could change.

00:00:24: We're capable of harm but also kindness Not just the society, but actually ourselves as human beings.

00:00:33: And maybe a real hope-punk radical goal I've been thinking lately is literally just evolving ourselves to have more empathy and kindness.

00:00:46: Hope-Punk is podcast about choosing hope in face of adversity.

00:00:50: Hope meant an activating force not wishful thinking.

00:00:55: The term was originally coined by fantasy author Alexandra Rowland who in twenty seventeen wrote a Tumblr post simply stating, the opposite of Grimdark is Hopepunk.

00:01:05: Pass it on!

00:01:07: Now... GrimDark is particularly dystopian sub-genre science fiction and Hopepunk doesn't negate that dystopia exists but says In The Face Of It choose hope anyway.

00:01:19: In A World That Is Unkind just being kind itself as radical act.

00:01:25: And while some would want to make us believe otherwise Hopepunk is everywhere.

00:01:30: That's why it is my intention with this podcast to shine a light on the people, projects and spaces that embody hope-inspired action every day.

00:01:39: What Is The Meaning Of Hope For Us Personally?

00:01:41: In the face of illness or loss for instance And Given The Current State Of The World How Does Hope Or The Lack Thereof Shape Our Politics & Society?

00:01:51: My guest today is Thomas Coombs.

00:02:00: He's founder of Hope-Based Communications, an initiative that promotes using hope as an effective strategy for change.

00:02:07: informed by psychology neuroscience and history.

00:02:12: Thomas has spent two decades in global political communication including roles as head of brand at Amnesty International and speechwriter at the European Commission.

00:02:22: he embodies help punk to me not just because you works with hope it is a no brainer but also because he really dives deep into the why.

00:02:31: He brings his personal history and experience to The Table, I will link to this TED Talk from a couple of years ago in the show notes... And literally transforms fear & pessimism into hope!

00:02:42: In human rights work has spent years looking more closely at dystopia than many of us would dare…and in face it actively chooses apply Hope as a lever for change.

00:02:54: So thank you very much Thomas.

00:02:57: Oh, thank you.

00:02:58: That's such a nice introduction.

00:02:59: I don't think i want to say anything else

00:03:02: But what is your take on hope this?

00:03:03: Is the question i ask everyone who comes into The podcast.

00:03:06: i guess it's of no-brainer for You.

00:03:08: It isn't a brain.

00:03:09: but i have actually been thinking about A lot lately because i noticed something In myself which if i see someone use the wrong in definition Of Hope i get defensive.

00:03:20: you know and as i notice we Have that We'll talk a Lot About fear but i Think Fear is an emotion that Makes us Want To control And part of my work in the communication side is that concepts like hope mean different things to people.

00:03:34: One thing happens, particularly with progressive spaces we always fight over a definition of things.

00:03:41: so I talk about hope as belief tomorrow can be better than today if you make it happen.

00:03:49: but i think that sense of believe is something important for politics.

00:03:54: But you know, I was thinking about it's actually kind of helpful to maybe use like an extra term and I rediscovered something from my dad.

00:04:01: An academic called Anna Cecilia Dienerstein who'd been working with the sort of Marxist definition hope which comes from Ernst Blach And she done this really interesting work on activists in Latin America.

00:04:14: So she talks about organizing hope Because that definition of Hope In That Space is It Is This Word Prefiguring The Future in the present.

00:04:25: I think i'm trying to decide is that word prefiguring a word, we can use day-to-day or two technical and marxist jargon but it's actually perfect words.

00:04:34: so she uses the example of say landless farmers in brazil just reclaiming the lands are not waiting for law.

00:04:41: by doing it workers in argentina during financial crisis at start century taking control of factories.

00:04:48: point being We don't just complain about the world, we don't wait for change to happen.

00:05:21: Wonderful.

00:05:21: When I looked at your website, you have a couple of quotes by thinkers that inform What needs to be said?

00:05:51: So the two of those really helped me understand what exactly you are trying to do with hope-based communications.

00:05:59: Maybe a word, to understand how you got where you're today... You started off in human rights work amongst other places and worked for Amnesty International.

00:06:10: Would you want say it maybe about why you went into that field?

00:06:19: Fear to hope based if that's even how you can say it.

00:06:23: No, that's exactly I would said.

00:06:26: And then that quote really relates to it.

00:06:28: So yeah mean for me do I?

00:06:30: oh somehow or had a very laser-clear mission in life because my family were Holocaust survivors and the story I Took from my family was that this is not about something That happened two one group of people but something humans did to humans and that I just got this sense especially for my mother, that like we have a duty to all other people facing the same experience Palestinians Yazidi Rohingya Bosnian Muslims You know and so that is basically became really my mission in life.

00:07:02: So I always wanted to do something.

00:07:04: I had no idea what actually could do as once more human being but That took me very clearly into politics and into Human rights And i think also communication because um...I want people to care Um..and I wanted these stories to be heard.

00:07:19: And so I was very much traditional, very angry full of fear and outrage person.

00:07:25: I was trying to raise awareness in what we call the human rights naming and shaming violations.

00:07:31: but it was around twenty sixteen when It just felt that actually that just approach wasn't working because people could see this suffering and yet it Wasn't leading to empathy and compassion.

00:07:43: And around that time, I guess what's lucky working in a big organization like Amstradational is said lot of experts came.

00:07:48: So you just quoted Anatka Rosario who talks about messaging.

00:07:53: so she as a messaging expert and she and several others were the people who started bringing these new ways of thinking to my attention.

00:08:03: particularly an ad came and just said when You make People afraid they're more likely To support The populist.

00:08:09: and then i looked at My communication my Messaging which was all About the crisis we are in and what a dangerous time this is.

00:08:16: When I realized that my communication was fear-based, it said where did that used?

00:08:20: And I realize okay how am i going to switch away from

00:08:22: that?".

00:08:23: It just simply involves saying well what's the opposite of fear... ...and I somehow landed on hope and thinking ok so we need actually be Hope based not Fear Based!

00:08:32: So I didn't arrive at hope through any sort of which ironically now took the Twitter handle or social media handle Very ironically, because I was like the least hopeful person in a room.

00:08:44: I grew up with very negative and sort of lot anger in my family for obvious reasons.

00:08:51: So it's really not natural thing to me And that is maybe why i've been the one selling It Because i have seen it really in pure rational light.

00:09:00: That purpose being hope based first of all Is To say how things could be Not just how they are.

00:09:06: If we want actual change, We have to talk about that.

00:09:08: Change is not enough To just say things are going well.

00:09:11: So the people who work for it Amnesty International and other activist groups Unless we can actually change The situation of what People were working For Then It's Not Enough You know.

00:09:21: so I also Have That Instinct i think Because Of That Mission Makes Me Probably Very Annoying because Im Always Questioning Our Strategy In Amnasty And Other Places Because For Me Its Not Enough Just Do The Job And Go Home.

00:09:33: I really have that sense when at amnesty, i'm going through the door.

00:09:36: It's like you know...I'm doing this for my grandparents as they walk through the doors.

00:09:41: so The way then evolved was- I had a kind of eureka moment Thanks to Annette and the brain science showing me.

00:09:48: okay if want empathy and compassion we need do things little differently But also realizing You can't just go tell all my colleagues who've been working in certain ways For long time to suddenly change completely what their'e doing.

00:10:01: And so since then, that was around twenty sixteen.

00:10:04: This approach has been evolving.

00:10:07: the purpose of this hope-based communication first of all it's to be focused on the Hope not The Fear but its also about everyone doing for themselves.

00:10:16: So It is Not About Me Going and Telling People What A Hopeful Message Should Be.

00:10:21: Its About people finding a Hope inside Themselves And Crucially.

00:10:25: This Is Sort Of The Hardest Thing To Get Across In Activism.

00:10:29: Its Not About Telling Hopeful Stories.

00:10:30: It's about finding the hope in every story.

00:10:34: That is a really important point!

00:10:36: You have been reading, diving into the neuroscience of how our brains work and now you teach Hope-Based to other people as well?

00:10:45: Do trainings...you are community right?

00:10:48: Is what do say Hope-based is a community or it an approach for both?

00:10:53: Yeah that was great question.

00:10:55: I would say so Instinctively.

00:10:58: didn't want to create like an agency or a business with this, because I developed it.

00:11:05: Because i just felt the human rights work is not working enough and so we need to change.

00:11:11: So really I developed that as you say has been approached for people ask themselves questions And so to me The goal Is For As Many People To Use It As Possible?

00:11:19: So Basically Put A Creative Commons License On Us.

00:11:23: Anyone Can Take And Use This.

00:11:25: And Then You Know I Was Fortunate Enough That other people actually just resonated, I think creating this structure.

00:11:31: Actually some colleagues have told me it gave them permission to sort of act on what they'd already been feeling?

00:11:35: I think a lot in social change felt this need for hope but the brain science kind of gives that credibility.

00:11:45: and so yeah basically there was so much demand actually for it that I realized okay i can't do this myself.

00:11:54: So right now, actually I've just joined two friends who built this single Rogue Union.

00:11:58: It's like an online global training community for social change people around the world.

00:12:02: and so i spent last year with this lovely new camera recording at a workshop that i've been doing over the past five years.

00:12:09: sort of points.

00:12:10: anyone can do it And i'm really working hard This Year.

00:12:12: Actually I Just Want To Get Everything Out Of My Brain And Out to Other People To Use It So Like Writing A Book Recording More And More Videos at the same time as it gets very common.

00:12:22: We're trying to keep a really, re-simple around these five shifts that anyone can ask themselves like I said to find hope in their story but above all reframe their message and work based on how things could be not just how they are.

00:12:36: Can you walk us through this five shift?

00:12:37: Absolutely!

00:12:39: So our starting point is fear of the Hope And with that i talk about emotions.

00:12:43: so again inviting people to think what do we need them for?

00:12:49: So actually yesterday I was giving a talk and someone said, what about anger?

00:12:52: You don't talk about anger very much.

00:12:54: We could go into that but the... What i would again want to always say here is talking about hope-I've had this old thing.

00:13:01: But it's also just about choosing emotions strategically.

00:13:04: And so maybe there are times to be angry.

00:13:06: Just think what happens when people are angry you know.

00:13:09: and so Think strategically about emotions.

00:13:12: Second is problem to solution.

00:13:15: We're very likely to focus on the problem, but we need to show people there's an alternative.

00:13:20: So really what I want is just try and train activists there as... ...we have this natural pull-to-fear into problems so you are never going not talk about them But just notice when you are!

00:13:29: And add a solution too because that does again change This really interesting brain science behind that one which was quick digression of our brains' prediction machines.

00:13:43: And that means if we've got this vision of the future, I think it's very important for Hopepunk.

00:13:50: If people have never seen a Vision Of A Future say where we're united as human beings with no nations anymore... For example right?

00:13:57: ...if you haven't ever seen them they can not only do it but cannot even support it.

00:14:01: So i think thats such an major shift in activism and anyone who wants to make change.

00:14:07: That first step isn't actually saying things are wrong.

00:14:09: The second is showing oh look here's alternative And that I think is this

00:14:13: what things could look like.

00:14:15: Yeah,

00:14:15: and the sort of brain science really makes just to me a very clear case that if you're not doing that then change will never happen.

00:14:23: Shift three than is from against two four?

00:14:26: This has just copied directly from Annette who we've quoted earlier.

00:14:29: she came to Amnesty and said that so it's okay there just has to be shift on its own.

00:14:34: because again... We'd think so much in terms of what were against all these vocabulary with anti-racist, anti-fascists.

00:14:41: I'm all of those things, but what i realized is it's actually quite hard for people to say if you're against those things.

00:14:48: Why do you four?

00:14:49: Uh and we might be worth talking about later But I mean It feels kind of talking about radical.

00:14:55: If we were against hatred and cruelty We're actually for love and kindness.

00:14:59: Yes For example, I saw a poster just on my run this morning another anti-aft protest And I always think well one would happen.

00:15:07: First of all, that means All Of Our Attention is focused on them.

00:15:10: We're centering our attention on them and we are putting it in the spotlight.

00:15:13: The AFD being the alternative for Germany because you were based in Berlin?

00:15:17: Yes

00:15:18: I would assume so other than old German.

00:15:20: Thank You!

00:15:22: So there's...I saw another poster for a protest against A Far Right Party In Germany And has been happening all over the world.

00:15:31: That thing makes us angry.

00:15:33: The thing where they are against Attracts a lot of our energy and attention.

00:15:36: But there's a researcher in the United States called Whitney Phillips who says, exposing things to sunlight is meant to get rid of them.

00:15:44: It's meant to disinfect but actually in the world sunlight makes things grow.

00:15:50: and so what would happen if those protesters who want to protest against The Alternative for Deutschland or any other far-right group?

00:15:56: What have we all came together for?

00:15:58: something like welcoming refugees?

00:16:04: That is that major shift we need to bring about.

00:16:06: To me, the work just starts on a really simple level of putting words into it because actually our vocabularies are really tilted towards what they're against.

00:16:15: Shift four is threat-to opportunity and this where you think audiences how do change people's mind?

00:16:21: And then final shift is victim-to-human.

00:16:24: so this little bit based on us how he tells stories with people as in old school approach in social change is like poverty porn of showing suffering.

00:16:35: And although we've tried to move away from that, We still often put people into the role of victim.

00:16:40: and there's also villain stories where you know...we always feel You have a victim and a villain then the activists are the hero coming out for rescue.

00:16:48: really this is just trying remind them again.

00:16:51: humanized stories.

00:16:53: so even those who suffer actually still hope And that's something I've actually found really hard to do, but so as you said like thinking about my grandparents for example.

00:17:03: Our sort of them is the victim.

00:17:05: But actually when i rethink a story through this frame and think about their resilience Oh yeah

00:17:10: This comes across very much in your talk right?

00:17:12: So maybe for the listeners Your grandmother Right was pregnant When she fled france.

00:17:20: Yeah That's right.

00:17:22: uh yes, oh mean it what would actually You know?

00:17:25: Maybe it's worth going back little bit.

00:17:27: So back in twenty sixteen when I started on this journey to hope, I'm seeing a really wonderful project called Give A Home where they teamed up with just cool organization calls so far hold concerts and people's living room.

00:17:42: To encourage welcoming of refugees.

00:17:45: And i was in one of those places it is the first time ever that actually shared this story for very long because didn't tell me but I was Jewish And I thought, okay.

00:17:57: Actually i'm going to share the story now and I told my grandmother's Story without telling them it was My grandmother?

00:18:02: I just said there Was a refugee brought To The border and they faced A barbed wire fence and uh...the person There sort of-I didn't say Trafker but in French is called a passer.

00:18:12: the Person who helped someone across the Border left him there.

00:18:15: Uh..and They were faced with this Barbed Wire Fence and my Grandfather.

00:18:18: well At that time the way he Said It was That you know her husband said Well we have to turn back But She, because she was pregnant climbed over the fence even though it was barbed wire and her hands were bleeding.

00:18:31: And they got to the other side when the police who had been sending most people back.

00:18:36: doing is what's called Ruff-Ulman like sending back refugees to the police.

00:18:41: It made very exceptions because of that stage in speech.

00:18:46: I said they asked to fill out a form to claim asylum under reason why he said Because i'm Jewish.

00:18:52: I then obviously said back in twenty sixteen, like one of the worst things about this story is that it could be happening right now today.

00:18:59: That was also just a very powerful moment for me because first of all... First time i sort-of outed myself and told his story And saw people.

00:19:06: It would resonate with people Because growing up in Ireland People weren't really very receptive to their stories.

00:19:13: But I also realized that space Was a very safe space And thats why had this realization Of connecting brain science.

00:19:21: when people themselves feel safe and comfortable, they are more primed for empathy and openness.

00:19:26: And so actually if we want people to act a certain way... ...we also have to prime them for those actions We have to understand in our thinking is biological It's physical it's in our body not just in our mind.

00:19:38: again I think that false dichotomy.

00:19:40: So i realize ah okay Actually More of our refugee communication needs put people in metaphorically In the cozy living room where They can hear this story rather than the sort of unease we put them.

00:19:52: Just for example, if you see a poster saying these people are suffering and your living in really comfortable lives... We're appealing to guilt there!

00:19:59: And shame?

00:20:00: That's actually not priming people to be open and welcoming.

00:20:03: So yeah telling that story has helped me develop this approach.

00:20:09: What would you say about those who are scared when you have so many refugees entering the country?

00:20:15: is there anything applicable?

00:20:19: people from fear to hope?

00:20:21: Yeah, absolutely.

00:20:22: To

00:20:22: humanize the whole discussion

00:20:25: yeah you know those.

00:20:25: first thing I think i would say if you let me a word of German...I would say wir schaffen das.

00:20:31: uh..i would say the words Angela Merkel said in twenty fifteen that we're a strong country and we face challenges before and we can do this!

00:20:38: We can get this done.

00:20:39: That was actually the perfect message.

00:20:41: what was very interesting at that time when Germany was welcoming hundreds of thousands I remember saying to German activist colleagues, like this is really good.

00:20:50: Like we've got a good leader here compared some other countries and they were like no she's a conservative She's not on our side We don't like her.

00:20:58: And so very few people got behind Angela Merkel.

00:21:00: actually from social change in progressive organizations?

00:21:04: That actually i think it was the moment we lost this issue because you know At amnesty another human rights groups should have been pressuring much more boldly other governments that get behind.

00:21:17: And there's plenty of other stories I have around that.

00:21:19: where, we really held back?

00:21:22: and what continues to this date is a fear of sharing our values.

00:21:27: So yeah practically as you go back your initial question We can never tell people not feel certain emotion but the point is human beings are prepared make sacrifices for a certain vision.

00:21:40: Talk about definitions of hope.

00:21:42: There actually nice definition This legal theorist Richard Rorty, I just found it actually in my local library.

00:21:50: He had a book Hope In Place of Knowledge and he talked about social hope.

00:21:56: And what do you mean by Social Hope?

00:21:57: is that we as community striving for the better future?

00:22:01: And like liberal societies require That we share that sense.

00:22:07: We can have our futures better For all us.

00:22:10: It's those stories Of that Better Future that prepares to sacrifice in social change, we're afraid to ask people for sacrifice.

00:22:18: We want to make it easy for them.

00:22:20: and we were afraid say yeah you know this might be hard work but its worth doing.

00:22:25: And that I think is what that message from Angela Merkel was.

00:22:28: That's how he addressed the people.

00:22:30: It isn't about saying This will perfect or great Its just a white thing

00:22:36: You mentioned before listening as an important skill when promoting hope.

00:22:43: When you say identity is so important for belonging and, right now, identity is often politicized in a way of othering saying we are here.

00:22:53: And they're

00:22:54: there.".

00:22:54: This also goes into the refugee discussion.

00:22:56: I guess I don't want to go into like a manipulative language, because i believe that identity is something multifaceted anyway.

00:23:08: You know?

00:23:08: I'm not sure whether promoting is the right word, but this sense of identity that has you know i think needed or an understanding Of identity.

00:23:39: That makes it possible to coexist with people from different cultures different backgrounds and You know too so that we can actually live in a democracy?

00:23:49: Yeah pluralistic

00:23:51: yeah It's such a great point.

00:23:55: You know, I think everything I do has always been driven by the desire to understand.

00:23:59: Understand how did The Holocaust happen?

00:24:02: How do genocides happened?

00:24:04: How is there a genocide happening now To Palestinian people?

00:24:07: after all So many people in Israel who are part of that what they've gone just house this happening and i found the brain science really helpful for That.

00:24:17: it helps me understand why People Do terrible things to each other.

00:24:20: but You know, a lot of it is identity and group formation like you've mentioned.

00:24:26: But the brain science also shows us possibilities for change that we have.

00:24:31: our brains are plastic they're constantly changing based on our experiences And so all the things you've mention like identity and belonging in how we live together These are all things that we had the power to shape.

00:24:43: So I found myself certain amount come from my self In understanding this psychology of dehumanization.

00:24:51: But I now have a mission of this idea of re-humanization, that again identity is formed through our experiences.

00:24:58: And so i strongly believe in just kind of custom part my identity you've been describing and multiple multi group identity That you know believe me or don't all just fit In narrow categories.

00:25:11: So then sometimes we progressives also use that kind of category group thinking too?

00:25:16: And so I like to talk about hope as the muscle we can train.

00:25:19: But also all these ways of thinking are things we can train.

00:25:23: And that's why I think Hope Punk is so important, right?

00:25:25: Because again it's putting new things out there.

00:25:27: teach us new ways of being and thinking.

00:25:30: i always have this idea That people who watch Star Trek Are a little bit more international minded because We all imagine This world where you know All the human race were just one.

00:25:40: but It's Also...I Think what we Can do in The short term Our Thinking Of What our Small Acts & Rituals That Bring A Certain Identity to Life.

00:25:49: There's a brilliant book out called Don't Talk About Politics.

00:25:53: I think she is a neuroscientist, Sarah Stein-Lebrano really recommend that to everyone but She makes this case what i was talking about earlier That the debate doesn't work.

00:26:01: What actually forms this identity Is experience and so i Think thats really helpful for us who want To be change makers And i think Really its like.

00:26:09: i would call hopepunk politics or Like their real activism based on Hopepunk Which if we have an idea of how We Want Things to Be Can we think of small actions and experiences, rituals maybe that bring that identity to life?

00:26:23: You know people can only have an identity if they're living it experiencing.

00:26:26: And so human beings can change.

00:26:29: were capable of harm but also kindness.

00:26:32: until We have to try in shape Not just the society But actually ourselves as human beings you may be Actually a real hope punk.

00:26:40: radical goal I've been thinking lately is literally involving ourselves just to have more empathy and kindness.

00:26:49: It kind of sounds like, you know that gathering you mentioned earlier in the living room?

00:26:54: That would be one of those hope-punky things...

00:26:55: Exactly!

00:26:56: ...to do bringing people together and literally enabling conversation between people with different lived experiences.

00:27:05: And a lot of these initiatives are very small.

00:27:08: They exist.

00:27:09: they're very small maybe local or running on no funds on a lot of volunteer work.

00:27:16: Do you know any other initiatives that give you hope in that sense?

00:27:21: Oh, wonderful question!

00:27:23: The first thing comes to mind is Hope Not Hate.

00:27:26: In the UK there were group who really driving again me and my journey To Hope because they did lots research into disadvantaged communities.

00:27:36: you know, when people feel less hope for their own future they're also less welcoming.

00:27:42: And they've been doing lots of festivals around the country in small local groups underneath The Umbrella Of Hope and now forgotten the word.

00:27:50: I have a beautiful name for it's like A Festival Of Hope but its got actually very cool names.

00:27:55: I look it up and put in the show notes.

00:27:57: Yes, putting a show notes But they days almost almost acting every summer but really regularly.

00:28:03: now there's an as much of this other groups involved So i'm sorry to ones that are forgetting right?

00:28:07: Now, but yeah just like sometimes It's Just parties on A street.

00:28:13: I mean i've seen you thinking Of The imagery There's Like Children Drawing And You know what's Really interesting.

00:28:17: Whenever I do Workshops I ask People To draw Or Imagine a future society where their policies are passed, so whether they're working on removing plastic waste or fighting sexual violence.

00:28:30: How would society look different?

00:28:31: how did it look different to walk down the street?

00:28:34: and what do you feel perhaps ?

00:28:35: How does it smell ,what do you hear?

00:28:38: So not just...you know The first instinct of an activist is to show like a court case.

00:28:44: You know our parliament passing a new law.

00:28:45: I mean no No,no,no..how does he look after that in daily life?

00:28:49: And that's really hard at first.

00:28:51: And people just started drawing parks full of people playing together, and I thought maybe my approach to Sicily like that?

00:28:58: everyone's just throwing parts.

00:28:59: It was in Taiwan... People did that from the Philippines activists didn't it?

00:29:04: Like Uganda, Tunisia and El Salvador Everyone started drawing a same picture of basically community.

00:29:11: People around at dinner table together or people in parks.

00:29:15: Hang on a sec!

00:29:16: Everyone is coming up with this universal vision.

00:29:18: And again, like what brings this to life?

00:29:21: more than just groups of really diverse people?

00:29:24: Maybe one last thing if you'll allow me.

00:29:26: Sorry I didn't talk so much.

00:29:28: No please that's why it is a podcast!

00:29:32: My wife and i were in Australia this winter to escape the Berlin Winter but we were in Melbourne on Christmas Day.

00:29:40: We don't celebrate Christmas...I've never done it.

00:29:42: So I always felt alone on Christmas In Christian countries And we went to the botanical gardens and it was full of people from all over Asia, in particular but all over the world.

00:29:51: Basically they're non-Christians were just having a picnic In the park on a sunny Christmas day Uh...and I was like oh yeah this is a picture People have been drawing at my workshops.

00:29:59: Um..And i think that somehow ...I don't know if there are words right now But that really illustrates ..i think The....in just real terms This vision We've been talking about.

00:30:11: So the way i would describe Is maybe what we need Are fewer demos and more dinners.

00:30:17: Yeah, also perhaps to open up the space of imagination.

00:30:20: Imagination is a word that comes to mind listening to you And of course when thinking about science fiction and hope.

00:30:27: punk You have those visions of the future about autonomous cars self-driving cars colonization Of space right?

00:30:35: That Is currently driving A lot of billionaire dreams.

00:30:39: Yes

00:30:39: Exactly

00:30:41: Shaping a Lot of actual technological development around AI and other things.

00:30:50: And Hopepunk, you mentioned the moment when you sort of started thinking about hope in twenty sixteen?

00:30:57: I mean that's... When Donald Trump first came to power in the US That's when Alexandra Rowland posted her Tumblr post basically said listen we need something opposite to Grimdark GrimDark being something like Game Of Thrones right?

00:31:10: and Hopepunk more like Lord of the World Lord of the Rings?

00:31:14: Yes, exactly.

00:31:15: We're in a world right now.

00:31:16: it certainly feels very dystopian at times so you know...the power of story and the power of imagination.

00:31:24: The Power Of Art.

00:31:26: Do You See A Connection Between What Feels Like Less Space For Expression in the arts, you know cuts of funding for these at least in Germany right now.

00:31:39: I like and i know that there are a lot of initiatives where it's this one called um...I think it's called Alla an Eintisch?

00:31:45: And have to check this but is literally organizing about organising dinners with people from different cultures Where they can enter into conversation.

00:31:56: Cut democracy.

00:31:59: education programs facing cuts cultural institutions facing cuts.

00:32:05: So how do you see a space for us to open this kind of imagination?

00:32:10: Yeah, that's really key.

00:32:11: I think there is actually the question about working in activism.

00:32:17: How did we fund innovative creative work To go back into the nerdy element of it This Richard Rorty guy who was like a real legal theorist What...I liked him saying hope and place knowledge.

00:32:30: so much politics, you know in political thinking and activism is all about this knowledge.

00:32:36: right.

00:32:36: if we document the harms.

00:32:38: And crimes and problems that's almost like.

00:32:41: That's enough.

00:32:42: but knowing things are not enough and Rory actually has a line about what.

00:32:47: instead of chasing our knowledge We try to cultivate our imagination To imagine how things could be different or better.

00:32:54: I think maybe The work we have is change what we value in the world and change this common sense that like, you know, the economy and security come first.

00:33:06: And it's obviously nice to have... You know I think there was an idea It's a nice thing about cultural things but got out of newspapers.

00:33:12: We've gotta have our academics.

00:33:14: All that comes first.

00:33:16: The culture has a nice little thing on its side.

00:33:18: What we need to do is change our understanding of human beings.

00:33:22: i think When we had this AI revolution an EI revolution, emotional intelligence where if we actually understand how humans work and you know our emotions drive us.

00:33:34: How much of our behavior in decision-making is driven by culture?

00:33:38: By our bodies!

00:33:39: And by the way we act.

00:33:41: maybe what we need to do is change our mindset to see how central that culture is to our lives... ...and also like what gives meaning to our life's.

00:33:49: Richard Vordy also came up with this fail The veil of ignorance.

00:33:53: This

00:33:53: thing is like, he's known for that more theoretical stuff.

00:33:57: and what's funny is when you know I just randomly saw that book in the library it was oh we also talked about hope!

00:34:02: And actually... Oh this is exactly why i'm thinking

00:34:05: Yeah..and the veil of Ignorance When I don't remember reading this in a seminar at university ages ago.

00:34:14: so there's just literally popping back into my head.

00:34:16: but You Know Just Imagine Talk About Imagination not knowing into what circumstances you will be born in the future.

00:34:26: Automatically forces you to a very concrete empathy

00:34:33: for

00:34:33: others, because if you really try and feel like it would be born anywhere in this world... What kind of circumstance do you want to promote today?

00:34:48: able to be a bit more certain that you will be able to live a peaceful life because in essence, I do believe most people of the world want to live in peace.

00:35:01: I think what your also describing is... What i see as future of human rights work.

00:35:07: The only question can convince other peoples thats the future Is literally just training empathy.

00:35:12: Empathy is muscle.

00:35:13: this something we can train our ability to take different perspectives, which is what you've just described.

00:35:19: And see other groups and... It's not that we can know what it's like to have experienced suffering but we can try and see their perspective.

00:35:30: That's something we can train.

00:35:33: maybe in school we need to learn less about entrepreneurship or empathy for example

00:35:39: When do think of the network with you on hope-based communications.

00:35:46: Who inspires you right now?

00:35:47: Like, who gives you hope because... You have people all over the world that are using this approach!

00:35:53: Yeah absolutely well.

00:35:54: maybe I'll see what's top of mind for me is.

00:35:58: in Romania, Romania's biggest feminist women's rights organization, Centrufilia i did a workshop two or three years ago And at first they were like, well you know we deal with really hard stuff.

00:36:12: Like violence against women and how are we meant to be hopeful?

00:36:16: Not talk about victims.

00:36:17: when talking about victims of violence!

00:36:20: I always find the people who are very resistant that first tend to be the ones who embrace their approach because they care... ...and those who do want to make sure doing things is best way can't help answering questions that come these five shifts.

00:36:37: And so Christina Praz is their communications person, and she took part in one of my certification courses to be a trainer herself.

00:36:44: She wrote me two weeks ago that said she's run her first workshop... ...and shared back.

00:36:52: the people she trained had the same problems as at first like how do we talk about hope when dealing with dark things?

00:37:00: But then they realized it was also empowering for those who have these experiences to share their whole story, their hopes and our aspirations not their fear.

00:37:09: And then something else that she talked about.

00:37:11: was you know when trying to bring this shift through the communication work at first what if we get less engagement?

00:37:19: When we talk about hope or when we're talking about fear?

00:37:23: but did she also realize it's also by changing how we measure the success of her work?

00:37:30: is just those metrics like how many clicks They did one piece of content, which involved a real lesbian couple in Romania.

00:37:40: And after that it was trying to make the case for care and politics... ...and then loads of their supporters wrote them saying other lesbians said this is first time we see ourselves represented in Romanian culture.

00:37:52: We've never seen our selves like on screen before.

00:37:56: That's such powerful point you know?

00:37:57: Like were always worried about are going get enough attention if move away from how?

00:38:02: now something else?

00:38:04: What if we don't get a media coverage?

00:38:06: But you know, it's getting a lot of media coverage reinforcing harmful idea.

00:38:11: You got little bit of coverage that makes few people feel seen.

00:38:15: what's more important?

00:38:17: Yeah maybe this is the shift to another topic.

00:38:22: yeah exactly.

00:38:24: but um A couple weeks ago you shared about speaking in European Parliament and you actually started everyone off with a breathing exercise.

00:38:35: Can you go into why you did that and what happened?

00:38:39: Yeah, I've never gotten more response on social media than from this little video which really was really unplanned.

00:38:46: so at an event in the European Parliament where we're talking about democracy narratives it's very long panel several people have gone before me And i realized like is anyone actually going to remember anything im saying now?

00:39:00: And then I remembered my own rule, which is if you want to change narratives we have to be the narrative.

00:39:05: So i was just talking about experience right?

00:39:08: If I want people to remember what I have to say in my point... ...I should make them feel and experience it!

00:39:14: Um so.. ..I asked people do something that I read about called like um a physiological sigh Which is taking deep three deep inhales and letting go and it's meant to activate our vagus nerve, which helps us move from that fear-based part of our brain into a more hope based brain.

00:39:33: And the message I had was actually... That is part of democracy!

00:39:37: If we want democracy to function better We need an emotional intelligence revolution To understand if doing that breath work makes me more contemplative Reflective prepares for empathy to understand someone else opinion.

00:39:53: Shouldn't every single meeting have Parliament?

00:39:55: involve that.

00:39:56: There's all this knowledge about how humans actually function, similarly for example in peace talks there was this finding.

00:40:03: I read a lot of the talks are like borders and reparations but often what does people negotiating most want is to see their pain?

00:40:15: if we actually want to improve human behavior, have to understand human behavior.

00:40:19: And so my idea there was basically this is a little bit of a prototype that's actually.

00:40:23: you know instead of telling people You should start doing breath work Let also actually do it and then here really I mean interesting To see that that really resonated with people.

00:40:31: So i'm already now thinking what else can I Do next?

00:40:33: What's the next trick?

00:40:35: but seriously as My con-thinking Now Is maybe um to develop A sort Of toolkit for political self regulation Because I find, like with these five shifts just making things easy for people to do creating these practical tools is really important.

00:40:53: Yeah so starting thinking about the activist brain as in... The current activists' brains are reactiveness or sort of tendency outrage and anger.

00:41:05: And can we shape a new activist's brain which is much more based on empathy and curiosity understanding?

00:41:13: Yeah, because activist burnout is real.

00:41:16: A friend said once it's very exhausting to always be fighting for even if you're fighting for something.

00:41:23: yeah also this approach called deep canvassing which has been very effective in Referenda.

00:41:30: so in terms of LGBTQ plus rights This approach of deep canvesting has being very effective.

00:41:34: Which people going door-to-door try and convince someone to vote For equal marriage in a referendum In the US, but also in Ireland.

00:41:43: I made a really big difference and he approaches rather than saying that here are the facts.

00:41:48: discrimination is wrong.

00:41:50: It's actually much more focused on listening.

00:41:52: so basically though The person the canvasser shares their experience then asks the other person to share back And So being listened too with such a powerful experience.

00:42:02: there were the campaigners in our and actually they would talked about.

00:42:04: They missed That.

00:42:06: deep canvassing involves so much positive human contact that

00:42:10: after it was over, they

00:42:13: actually missed it.

00:42:13: They miss the spirit of community and togetherness.

00:42:16: So I think that's kind of relevant also like if we want democracy to be vibrant It needs to be togetherness not just around elections.

00:42:23: But what i'm thinking about a lot is had you been at Deep Canvasing Spirit?

00:42:27: That power of listening Into mass communication into political communication into parliaments themselves?

00:42:35: Um, maybe it's like Hope based part two or the.

00:42:39: you know.

00:42:39: It feels like this.

00:42:41: I basically don't know yet But it definitely feels that that's really important.

00:42:44: Like next step we need to work on.

00:42:47: Do feel you have allies and politics as well?

00:42:51: Yeah, i mean You just look around us, you know We have that negativity bias where The sort of fear driving politicians take our attention.

00:43:03: but i mean Just Xorran Mamdani just into Ardern, they are there and showing how it's done.

00:43:10: Of course this is Barack Obama as well.

00:43:12: I'm always interested also to look beyond a little bit beyond say global minority countries in seeing the global majority.

00:43:20: other stories as well.

00:43:22: but i think...I worked with one MEP French left-wing MEP called Leila Shaiibi who met working with gig workers for worker rights.

00:43:34: I think for me, like the MEP is really standing up.

00:43:37: I don't want to say that poor but you know working class for workers driving an economic message i talked about earlier.

00:43:43: and yeah...I was really insecure at first because I wanna work with more politicians.

00:43:47: But I'm just saying oh well can actually be helpful.

00:43:49: this is a great politician doing his work.

00:43:52: And one thing when I realized Like This Approach Works Was When I came back from my second meeting With her in our team.

00:43:58: She said Oh Yeah We Keep Asking Ourselves.

00:44:00: Is This Hope Based Or Not?

00:44:02: So like that, I think is where the effect.

00:44:04: Is just for people to ask themselves The question.

00:44:07: don't need to completely redo things But i think a lot of more and More politicians are recognizing That needs To offer what i call visionary leadership?

00:44:16: To show vision Of the change we want to see to talk about those values We desperately Need People to start talking About Like their importance of empathy And kindness the way Just into ardor in breck obama do to make it common sense but also above all voices.

00:44:31: So like Zoran Mandani, the way he goes and just talks to people I think that's a great example of being the narrative.

00:44:37: People talk about like the sophistication of his social media campaign but actually what he did was really simple.

00:44:43: it was going in engaging with people.

00:44:45: i mean That's where a lot of politicians fall down.

00:44:48: You know you can have the words you can talk about togetherness But you have to think am I actually doing it?

00:44:54: This goes I think beyond Just The Progressive or Left camps, right?

00:44:59: What would you say to people who are saying that this will be naive or...

00:45:03: Yeah.

00:45:04: I think it's interesting the idea of the naivety.

00:45:07: so when we talk about love-kindness, breastwork and parliament our instinct is naivetee.

00:45:13: You know i can't help thinking This my grumpy side coming out That actually in this world where We have AI driving hate at such a scale where we have capitalism.

00:45:25: We're such an equality, you know creating such fear and insecurity or climate change all these things were kind of going off a cliff.

00:45:32: whoever whether it's far right or a centrist in power Or even left?

00:45:37: We need to really completely change the whole amount of things about how we live But I think particularly with especially AI The way that we interact with each other.

00:45:46: so To me then naive thing is to think That we can keep going away without some radical change And greater understanding on humans work.

00:45:55: And so yeah, the thing to me is that the naivety actually is to ignore all this neuroscience and psychology.

00:46:00: Particularly what really alarms me as a strain of thought in say elite or political circles.

00:46:06: That buys the narrative that people are racist Or hateful or afraid Of others because I think it ignores how much suffering People have had In daily life.

00:46:17: We talked about a financial crisis in two thousand eight And I think there's this really strong desire to just say, oh people don't like migrants.

00:46:25: But for all the people here every day as you're suffering because of migrants that becomes a story in their brain.

00:46:31: We need have little bit more faith into humanity than our fellow human beings and see actually they are possibilities.

00:46:38: so maybe it may be first step.

00:46:41: after our conversation is over i'm going try different kind meeting with some colleagues working on international law called possibility space.

00:46:49: I'm a bit nervous because i don't know...I've never done one before.

00:46:52: So, being an imposter and trying to just do it but really want ask them what feels impossible?

00:46:57: And maybe those politicians who thinking things are naive Maybe they're speaking from the place of fear Because doing something different is scary.

00:47:08: It's easier if you say that's silly or naive.

00:47:10: so we rationalize why not?

00:47:14: But maybe we just invite people to think, well what is possible and why would you like to see happen?

00:47:19: Well the thing also that if you are pessimistic it's often described as being realistic.

00:47:24: To be pessimistic about the future.

00:47:27: If things turn out in a way they said will turn out at least you'll have been right.

00:47:31: Yeah there something called a cynical genius illusion where people who sound skeptical or negative seem more intelligent.

00:47:38: but lot of time those negative prognostications don't actually turn out the way people said, but we never go back to the people who were negative and say oh you said it would be bad.

00:47:48: And that wasn't so bad.

00:47:49: You are wrong.

00:47:50: But if someone says It's going to be better We're always gonna go back into.

00:47:53: Oh is not as good As he said?

00:47:56: So I think yet we also have To Be Careful.

00:47:58: Basically We Have An Inherent Negativity Bias Which Is Our Survival Instinct.

00:48:03: Your Brain Is Programmed Or Could That Be A Threat?

00:48:06: Thats our first step!

00:48:07: to be conscious of that inner negativity, I've got a lot of it and balance it out.

00:48:15: So It's also about saying okay what could go wrong?

00:48:19: but then have i also asked myself What can go right?

00:48:22: How Can I make it Right?

00:48:23: And I think That is the key point.

00:48:26: Wonderful!

00:48:27: My colleague Osama Buddha who has really gave me The chance To build hope based communication.

00:48:32: on his first day at Amnesty He said You Have this slogan At Amnest International Its better to light A candle than curse a lot more time cursing the darkness.

00:48:42: And that's when I realized that human rights and hope are tools for dark times, you don't need a light unless it's

00:48:49: dark.".

00:48:50: In positive psychology they say the same thing but actually hope is a function of... Well, Brene Brown calls it a function to struggle.

00:48:58: It's unique among positive emotions because one that you activate when things are bad.

00:49:03: So like we do not need hope When Things Are Fine.

00:49:05: So this what I'm trying saying Human Rights right?

00:49:08: Like Hope-based Communication is designed specifically for talking about Gaza, for Syria.

00:49:13: For the Uyghurs of people in Congo It's in dark times that you need to light and hope because it's about determination to keep going.

00:49:22: I'd like say its a muscle Its something you train.

00:49:27: That why i have this shifter idea which when problems are negative or fear comes You train yourself to recognize them but bring into hope.

00:49:35: But what also really key there That work of imagination you talked about and the hope punk is, I think what happens when we start imagining this better future.

00:49:45: First of all You realize it's not actually that science fiction-y because It ends up being a community in a park.

00:49:51: But once you've articulated What do you want?

00:49:53: In the future you start to see the seeds have changed All around you And i talk before but sunlight makes things grow.

00:49:59: So Okay We need pay attention To The racist burning down the refugee center.

00:50:06: When we don't talk about the five million Germans who organized themselves to welcome strangers and the fifteen thousand community initiatives that were started, do it.

00:50:16: The danger is that a small number of races become the narrative And they became the dominant story Of how he think about last ten years.

00:50:24: So actually majority people want be kind welcoming.

00:50:29: but now the dominant narrative in politics as common sense Is to be cruel.

00:50:33: We have look at thing

00:50:35: more.

00:50:35: I think it's also important, you know.

00:50:39: You have had this experience of being new in a place without having been refugees ourselves... ...you made life for yourself in a new place and i think its extremely valuable to make that experience not even if people don't need everyone be welcoming but one person open the door And to actually change the course of your life.

00:51:08: Just like, Your grandmother she climbed that barbed wire fence and She wasn't sent back.

00:51:13: Yeah

00:51:14: That person could have made a different choice.

00:51:16: yeah

00:51:16: absolutely I mean you've just.

00:51:19: i mean You define literally hobes communication as The strategy right.

00:51:22: so being welcomed is more Like receiving kindness.

00:51:26: it's More likely to make us kind.

00:51:29: But what brain science also shows Is that seeing other people be kind To Other People triggers the same parts of our brain as if we've received a kindness ourselves.

00:51:39: And so, the point is what does this story tell us about politics?

00:51:44: If it's that humans are cruel then we're more likely to be cruel but if you see stories of kindness.

00:51:51: that primes us to be kinder selves right.

00:51:54: So like I said earlier before one of my biggest problems now is that politics is serious and culture is kind.

00:52:02: What we actually need is to break that down.

00:52:05: That barrier, right?

00:52:06: There's like a Berlin wall of you know between politics and culture let's say.

00:52:11: but so we need actually bring in into the news The kindness as well.

00:52:17: So that has kind of changed when it brings about.

00:52:20: Yeah You have another quote.

00:52:23: You quote Zadie Smith.

00:52:26: That was speech she gave In Germany Right after Donald Trump selection.

00:52:30: It was interesting.

00:52:31: The Martin Nussbaum quote was written right after Trump's election in twenty sixteen and Sadie Smith gave this talk, in Germany on optimism and despair.

00:52:42: And she said we all of us have multiple behavioral possibilities inside as well like an orchestra that is tuned by the conductor?

00:52:49: Right now just hearing the most banal military voices.

00:52:54: But all of us who have a different idea need to sing a different tune or sing along something on those lines.

00:53:00: I think it's beautifully selected, so she says in her quote if novelists know anything is that individual citizens are internally plural.

00:53:10: they have within them the full range of behavioral possibilities there like complex musical scores from which certain melodies can be teased out and others ignored or suppressed depending at least in part on who is doing the conducting.

00:53:25: at this moment, twenty sixteen i guess yeah.

00:53:28: all over the world and most recently in america.

00:53:31: The conductors standing in front of this human orchestra have only the meanest and most banal melodies in mind.

00:53:38: here in germany you will remember these marshal songs.

00:53:40: they are not a very distant memory but there is no place on earth where they have not been played at one time or another.

00:53:47: those of us who remember too our finer music must try now to play it and encourage others

00:54:08: if we can to sing along.

00:54:22: helps us realize what we actually want.

00:54:24: And if you don't know where to go, ask for it and if not then never get it!

00:54:28: It also doesn't mean negating the challenges.

00:54:32: so shifting the gaze I think is important... ...and being able have a different kind of debate around what the challenge could be?

00:54:44: First of all yeah i'd love more storytelling about this because things in life that drive our lives give meaning are hard things.

00:54:53: And so I think it's about overcoming challenges together, and when we do... So like for my next body of work around this activist brain i'm drawing a lot on sports science!

00:55:05: When endurance athletes do hard things they use intrinsic motivation.

00:55:11: so inner motivated by inner values um..I think that's one of the things I've been trying to do with our activism is get us Cultivate and recognize those inner values that make us do.

00:55:22: When we welcome refugees, We're not doing it because its good for the economy And they are going to go pick fruit.

00:55:27: Take care of us when were old.

00:55:28: Were doing it Because human connection Of doing good If you want help Usually comes from inside us.

00:55:35: So...When we welcome a refugee into our home Then don't get along Right?

00:55:39: We aren't just gonna kick them out.

00:55:43: But what motivates us To work through this?

00:55:46: So yeah, I feel like there's just much more storytelling to be done of those challenges in doing the right thing and not any sort of doom way.

00:55:54: Maybe in progressive spaces always things are right or wrong.

00:55:58: And then some of these challenge you described a lot people working on refugees who say that it is hard to tell stories about the perfect migrant with their white savior.

00:56:09: We need get better at telling human story.

00:56:12: That what really important for hope It's fear and hope.

00:56:16: So what I try to do, my job is just get activists find their hope... ...and the values right?

00:56:23: The messages that will convince people and so on.

00:56:26: And i've tried loads of different methods in worksheets.. ..And when I realized this we start with the fear.... ....And from then we transform the fear into Hope!

00:56:34: So literally they'll get people write down what are against or afraid of... ...And than say opposite those things Our hope comes out off the fear.

00:56:42: You can't separate them.

00:56:43: We've got our downstairs brain and upstairs brain, you know?

00:56:46: You do the breath then move from one to another like I think the mistake is trying to separate it too.

00:56:51: It's like a duology.

00:56:53: Wonderful thank-you!

00:56:55: i think its time for my probably last question.

00:56:58: If your finishing school that you were eighteen or twenty years old today in twenty twenty six which advice would give yourself?

00:57:06: That such nice questions?

00:57:07: oh there are so many things.

00:57:09: I think there's two sort of angles to it.

00:57:11: First, let me talk about young people in general.

00:57:14: My first instinct is actually To ask them for advice rather than the other way around because like i said... ...I feel as a lot we need to fix and what we need are new visions And I really want to hear the new visions from them.

00:57:28: So I guess the advice with that would be maybe not to fall into temptation That many us had when were young which was just show look at whats wrong wth world.

00:57:38: but actually we desperately need you to bring new ideas and like, new alternatives.

00:57:44: Personally for myself another one thing what's interesting is the more I look at this science particularly just sort of prove that people who think it's naive say here are all these neuroscience in psychology proving their breath work into European Parliament as a good idea.

00:57:59: A lot of this neuroscience comes together with Buddhist spirituality and meditation And my father's been practicing Tibetan Buddhism for like forty years.

00:58:10: So I kind of think, when i was young as a Tibetan retreat center in the west of Ireland and spent one week or two there... ...I really imbibed through all this stuff about compassion and loving-kindness.

00:58:25: It has always been part of my philosophy but never practised it.

00:58:28: Never did meditation and mindfulness practice.

00:58:32: Imagine.

00:58:33: if just known all that stuff, then I had this wonderful opportunity to actually be much happier the last twenty years instead of always feeling bitter and having fights with colleagues without meaning too.

00:58:44: And like all the insecurity...I mean it would have been there anyway but i'm like oh yeah!

00:58:48: That would've been really smart.

00:58:50: to keep doing that mindfulness practice all that time.

00:58:53: so um very last question do you see yourself as a bridge builder?

00:59:02: I've been saying in human rights we need to move from being firefighters, to gardeners.

00:59:10: So i'm not very good at building things...I don't know if im a very good gardener either but ive gonna use my media training and shift..i'm going bridge away like say Im a gardener.

00:59:21: Im trying grow new thing.

00:59:23: Love it!

00:59:24: Thank you so much.

00:59:25: Yeah its an absolute pleasure.

00:59:27: really enjoyed.

00:59:32: founder of hope-based communications.

00:59:35: I invited him because i think he's exactly what HopePunk is about for Thomas, hope as a muscle something that can be activated in dark times especially in Dark Times and they can guide anyone when working towards the positive future.

00:59:51: Thomas says his work is about finding The Hope In Every Story.

00:59:54: His approach is informed by brain science and psychology.

00:59:58: Because human brains are wired for change, it matters what kind of stories we tell ourselves and others.

01:00:04: In Human Rights Communications Thomas' field-of work he says that fear used to be the driver for those stories you use to tell.

01:00:12: Naming and shaming however did not lead to a change she had hoped to see.

01:00:17: So how do we tell stories about positive changes?

01:00:20: How do we activate a kind of hope punk politics as thomas called in our conversation?

01:00:29: The starting point is going from fear to hope inviting people To feel the emotions that they want to feel when whatever change.

01:00:37: They want to see as actually reality Choosing emotion strategically, so-to speak and this by the way Is something that other guests in this podcast have spoken about us?

01:00:47: Well I'll bait a different context.

01:00:50: The second shift of perspective is about going from problem to solution.

01:00:55: the third About going from against two four The fourth, about reframing a story from threat to opportunity and finally making the shift from victim-to-human.

01:01:09: These five shifts form part of toolkit that Thomas uses train colleagues all over the world And they are free for anyone use under creative commons license.

01:01:20: Link to thomas' website can be found in show notes.

01:01:24: For me one core hopepunk aspect lies in its potential for opening up spaces for imagination.

01:01:32: It matters what stories we tell in our societies, and for this culture is hugely important.

01:01:38: on that we agreed.

01:01:40: Literature music theater they are not just nice to haves and free societies but incredibly important to fostering our humanity.

01:01:48: In a society in which angered hate seemed to be everywhere shifting the gaze to their opposites That means too.

01:01:55: empathy love and kindness might just be the antidote we need.

01:02:00: As Thomas mentioned, sometimes we think that sunlight will disinfect but actually it makes things grow!

01:02:08: Thank you for listening to this first English episode of HopePunk a podcast about The Power Of Choosing Hope In The Face Of Adversity.

01:02:15: Next week's Episode Will Again Be in English and feature Omri Price managing director of an organization We co-founded A Few Years Back called Alliance For Europe.

01:02:25: If You Like This Episode Please leave a review and subscribe, or write to me at mitre.hopepunk.eu.

01:02:34: My name is Mitre Schomburgh And I look forward to hopefully welcoming you back To future episodes.

01:02:38: Goodbye.