HOPEPUNK - Strengthening European Resilience with Verena Ringler

00:00:00: So I'm really fascinated by the power of one or two, three individuals that often set a spark and can induce non-violent macro changes.

00:00:13: Because wherever you go... ...you find people move their village or youth forward in some way or another.

00:00:22: And these were profound experiences!

00:00:29: Job took me, often self-organized to Bosnia or the way to Lake Baikal.

00:00:35: And

00:00:35: I was in Washington

00:00:36: D.C.,

00:00:37: on nine eleven... ...I was in Hungary to cover a syrnet spill in a river In February.

00:00:42: two thousand traveling many buses across to Romania and everywhere i found myself with people

00:00:50: With

00:00:51: societies whose life had been turned upside down.

00:00:58: Hope Punk is podcast about choosing hope in face of adversity.

00:01:02: Hope

00:01:03: meant as an activating force, not wishful thinking.

00:01:07: The term was originally coined by fantasy author Alexandra Rowland who in twenty-seventeen wrote a Tumblr post simply stating the opposite of Grimdark is hopepunk.

00:01:19: Pass it on!

00:01:20: Now, GrimDark is particularly dystopian subgenre science fiction and hopepunk doesn't negate that dystopia exists but it says Anyway, in a world that is unkind just being kind as an itself.

00:01:37: A radical act.

00:01:39: and while some would want to make us believe otherwise Hopepunk is everywhere.

00:01:44: That's why it was my intention with this podcast To shine a light on the people projects and spaces that embody hope inspired action every day.

00:01:53: My guest today is Verena Ringler founder and head of European Commons And Agora a boutique think-and do tank based in Innsbruck, Austria.

00:02:02: I met her around fifteen years ago at a remote Austrian monastery where our group was convened on the invitation of few European foundations.

00:02:12: If i remember correctly Verena is the mastermind behind this format which lured a select group of so-called EU insiders meaning people who worked closely with european institutions or politicians to join an unknown EU outsider to think about the future of Europe.

00:02:32: I invited Verena to be in this podcast because she is an innovator at The Intersection between political institutions on one hand and players outside politics, science business and civil society On the other hand.

00:02:45: She's also just a very close observer of European Union.

00:02:50: Time and again Verena seeks to strengthen voices that often get overlooked Because they are seemingly too irrelevant or small or too far away from the centers of power in the capitals, but instead of buying into that narrative, Verena takes these voices seriously and seeks to empower them.

00:03:10: Being effective is no easy feat – but Verena has been consistently building her track record for more than twenty-five years!

00:03:18: She started her career as a journalist….

00:03:20: …and spent several years working —for instance—.

00:03:27: Later, she returned to Europe and joined a team around the Special Representative of the Council for European Union in Kosovo as Deputy Head of Press & Public Affairs.

00:03:38: Since then She has worked independently but also within institutions For instance As head of international affairs and Euro projects at Stiftung Merkatoa!

00:03:48: She is also former visiting fellow At The German Marshall Fund Of United States.

00:03:53: Verena thank you so much for joining me.

00:03:55: What's your take on hope?

00:03:57: Well, thank you for inviting me, Maite.

00:03:59: And to me hope is three things at once It's a competence it's a compass but its also condition of resistance.

00:04:11: Why a competence?

00:04:13: I realized some years ago that Hope Is something we need to practice and train like A really difficult board or craft comes to us, you know like from the blue sky but we have to train it so hard that we become masters in it and then more than a skill really turns into competence.

00:04:43: And why is it a compass?

00:04:45: Hope for me also as moral compass.

00:04:48: because hope wherever I encounter gives on one hand security of the direction, but also the consolation that it's a non-violent quality.

00:05:04: Wherever I meet people who exhibit an attitude and sense of hope... ...I realize this is an infinite source!

00:05:15: And those who exhibit hope mirror a deeply empathic relationship with all living things as such.

00:05:25: And in that sense, hope is a compass because it's not extractionary.

00:05:29: It's not finite!

00:05:31: It's an infinite source and then infinite sort of compass over direction.

00:05:39: at the third aspect That I find particularly important In this very time is that Hope Is resistance?

00:05:46: Hope to me is A Very powerful tool To focus The energy and attention on solutions on the people and their initiatives that work on solutions for them.

00:05:58: many, not just a few.

00:06:01: And in that vein every glimpse of hope we sense that we cultivate consciously is an act of resistance.

00:06:10: Hope isn't some naivety but it's very strong and hard foundation.

00:06:18: therefore its also and act of resistance.

00:06:24: Resistance against extraction, short-termism oligarchy autocracy colonialism.

00:06:32: so hope to me is a competence but also a condition of resistance.

00:06:38: Thank you so much.

00:06:39: I love that You are someone who's very well versed in the situation Eastern Europe as well and post communist Europe all countries of the former Soviet bloc.

00:06:53: And right now, we see in Albania The so-called Flamingo Revolution which has been going on at this point for about nine consecutive days In resistance to plans by Jared Kushner and Ivanka Trump To turn a protected island into a luxury resort.

00:07:13: How far are your three elements Of hope that you outlined so eloquently?

00:07:19: competency, compass and resistance.

00:07:24: In how far can you apply those to the situation in Albania?

00:07:28: Well, Albania is actually a great example.

00:07:32: I have been visiting Albania several times since the year two thousand.

00:07:39: i was there last year in twenty-twenty five as an election observer for the organization for security and cooperation.

00:07:49: the years and years of very professional and patent civil society players to make the Viozza River Valley a protected area.

00:08:06: And it was a huge victory by players like Patagonia, The Firm but also arranged in a huge number European and Balkans society organizations, when finally in the year twenty-twenty one or twenty-two they all managed to declare the Vjosa River as their last wild river.

00:08:34: In Europe a fully protected zone.

00:08:38: And I have seen for years The creativity, the fearlessness, the freedom of action in cultural and civil society players, especially in Albania.

00:08:54: And it's not that all these organizations and demonstrators pop up out of the blue now.

00:09:01: they have been working on this consistently.

00:09:04: They've developed a competence for hope.

00:09:16: you have to have your data, your facts together.

00:09:20: You've got to have legal knowledge and good funders in order to be able create change with an impact on a country like Albania.

00:09:34: And why is hope a compass?

00:09:36: In the case of the Flamingo revolution what we see now are the top of an iceberg The preparatory work!

00:09:45: The energy the social, their professional work.

00:09:49: to actually come into such a civic non-violent people movement from one day till another requires years and usually decades of background preparations.

00:10:04: We see in Albania today something that we have seen in many European countries where many years before eighty nine.

00:10:18: in order to understand why, In this very minute that history breaks then a lot of key multipliers in the society are ready.

00:10:29: They're professional.

00:10:30: they have been following their own compass in order To stand for their own values and convictions.

00:10:38: And third aspect The hope as resistance.

00:10:42: I think we don't go much deeper in this moment because the flamingo revolution itself is so joyful.

00:10:50: It's beautiful, it's non-violent.

00:10:54: there are a lot of women and children who play roles that discover their voice often for first time.

00:11:04: to me actually The Flamingo Revolution a competence, a compass and the condition of resistance.

00:11:18: But it also is a belated Nineteen Eighty-Nine moment

00:11:24: off

00:11:25: Albanian

00:11:25: society.".

00:11:27: It sounds almost like a roadmap.

00:11:29: what you describe so almost sounds like cultivating soil of different institutions, different initiatives of civic life and civil society organizations outside actors who set this scene.

00:11:43: Then when the moment comes, these actors are willing and able to jump on the same train because they share a moral compass.

00:11:55: And then join forces in resistance.

00:11:59: is that fair summary of what you just said?

00:12:03: They first managed to make the Vilsa River Valley naturally protected zone victory of a very diverse civic coalition.

00:12:17: Of businesses, celebrities and civil society organizations.

00:12:23: What you describe around Albania really sounds like resilience Resilience over country other people.

00:12:32: How does that connect to your work?

00:12:35: Because you have focused your entire career on strengthening Europe.

00:12:39: Well, I think the question of hope in its three dimensions that we see now coming out of Albania very well mirrors The larger questions That we are dealing with many variations In Europe every day and this has always been about the change

00:12:57: Of

00:12:58: the boundaries between common or public interests on one hand and particular private interests on the other hand.

00:13:06: And I have been very interested in the last decades to understand the civic abilities, and civic power that is necessary... ...and that includes businesses and science organizations,... ...in order to protect and reclaim the spaces and goods that are common public goods.

00:13:31: so.... The topics that I work on often and always have as a deep undercurrent, the deep conflicts between public-and common interests in one hand... ...and particular or private interest.

00:13:47: And so resilience is not just the ability of a system let's say Albanian society to absorb crisis but that either a system manages to prevent the crisis in first place, or is able to bounce forward with increased strength.

00:14:12: Is this same as pushing back?

00:14:14: In your view...

00:14:15: No!

00:14:15: Basically what I want say it's we see abilities of people now and when you talk about resilience they're ability transform its ability to modernize sometimes push through a birth channel, so to say of a topic or country and that transformation is sometimes quite intense.

00:14:41: It's messy!

00:14:42: And this when the system can be called resilience That society or that country or that topic emerges in stronger, transformed and modernized afterwards.

00:14:58: It's basically like a pressure pot.

00:15:01: And then it is about consolidation?

00:15:04: Yeah, but consolidation can never be to go back to the state of reality that was... ...but resilience describes the successful shift of a system from one reality into an next improved or better one.

00:15:22: Yes!

00:15:23: Going from past Through a present shock, into our future.

00:15:27: Into more desirable future?

00:15:29: Yes or no?

00:15:30: Absolutely!

00:15:32: You know I think we often overlook that and this is what my whole focus lies on... ...is to talk to policy makers And in my perception.. ..I see the current threats The current challenges and crisis That be facing Europe as invitations for transformation.

00:15:54: And I argue that we do have the ingredients and majority of civic Europe to actually use these threats, in order to transform our overall system with increased intensity.

00:16:14: In order to face many geopolitical challenges that Europe is facing.

00:16:23: Yes, because I treat the European system as a constant interplay of institutions with societies including organisations in science and businesses.

00:16:36: So if we treat Europe as a system then we know that one single acupuncture point at some spot can unblock a whole circuit

00:16:53: of

00:16:54: progress or life, for energy in that system.

00:16:58: And I very much believe in that systemic approach to our European future rather than the still dominant linear and siloed

00:17:10: approach.".

00:17:11: How did you become someone who works... Who believes in power these systems?

00:17:17: What shaped you ?

00:17:19: Well i think two main spaces in my childhood and youth.

00:17:27: On the one hand, as a child I was exposed to creativity... ...and the impact of non-violent resistance movements like the one against apartheid in South Africa in the nineties where our supermarkets in Innsbruck Austria we saw signs at the pineapple box.

00:17:50: that said, don't buy fruit from South Africa.

00:17:54: And I also got to know The Free Trade coffee concept in the nineteen eighties and unconsciously i was empowered but also fascinated by the idea That we as one family you know As an individual who pays something At a supermarket cashier can really be In direct connection To somebody on the other side of the planet and helped to create a necessary change for people over there.

00:18:25: And then, in nineteen eighty-nine happened!

00:18:28: This was the fall of Berlin Wall at the Iron Curtain.

00:18:32: it was macrochanged that more or less peaceful and nonviolent.

00:18:37: I was really fascinated how these Monday prayer meetings for years until the moment came and in nineteen eighty nine arrived.

00:18:54: And then people had necessary energy, the necessary mass of hope to push through with movement opening Europe.

00:19:07: so I'm really fascinated by The power of one or the power of two, three individuals that often set a spark and can induce non-violent macro changes.

00:19:21: And I do think these changes in comparison to wars are greatly understudied and overlooked at international relations schools because wherever you go You find people move their village or youth forward.

00:19:40: And these were really profound experiences.

00:19:44: I was a magazine journalist in my early twenties and that job took me, often self-organized to Bosnia or the way to Lake Baikal... ...and i was in Washington DC on nine eleven.. ..I was in Hungary to cover a Surinitz spill in a river in February.

00:20:01: two thousand traveling many buses across to Romania And everywhere.

00:20:07: I found myself with people, with societies whose life had been turned upside down.

00:20:15: Sometimes overnight sometimes gradually by disaster or design... ...I met this mother in Central Asia who had to bring her daughter home from Mathematics studies so that the daughter would learn how preserve and prepare fruit and vegetables in order to live a life without electricity.

00:20:40: Again, In the late nineteen nineties or years after that I saw deindustrialization early on And i saw lot of despair also in Irkutsk with terrible drugs coming from Afghanistan.

00:20:59: There was this very simple school teacher in Irkutsk, Russia who in his free time tried everything to get the youth away from drugs because parents of post-communist years were so overwhelmed and extremely embarrassed about their young people falling into drugs that they had to hide them.

00:21:23: And sometimes did terrible things tell their neighbors and not have this issue sort of become the news in the street.

00:21:34: And I saw patterns.

00:21:35: at some point, i saw patterns in these dynamics Of societies taking communities forward In terrible and difficult situations and everywhere and always from Some really surprising corner somebody rises to leadership.

00:21:55: This is what discovered in my early journeys as a reporter and journalist to many of the referees

00:22:04: off

00:22:05: our Eurasian continent.

00:22:08: And I decided, I want to cultivate and to boost that special leadership.

00:22:13: so i began to specialize in mega themes of the future and transition processes.

00:22:20: So what do is see Europe and its society.

00:22:25: I mapped the players and voices of a certain topic, let's say biodiversity.

00:22:32: So at that moment when we have my map together... ...I dedicate my energy to see the potential for this topic moving forward.

00:22:45: I operate as an opportunity manager for common good so I identify it as promising.

00:22:54: then I scout cooperation partners who have a mandate or Who has the resources and?

00:23:01: Who want to become part of this solution, and these partners always know that early investment in a topic Or in a particular group of people will Always pay off Because it's about prevention.

00:23:20: It's like in health right prevention is usually the most effective, efficient and joyful way forward.

00:23:29: And that's something we could call a theory of change or hope because it has specific and very technical idea to boost topic for people who are important in our common future.

00:23:48: So this sounds very much like fostering resilience and going into, you know planning what is a desirable future.

00:23:57: And working within the existing system bringing in voices that you think are relevant to then go through that process of transformation you just described.

00:24:09: how do You Do What To Do?

00:24:11: Well if I run Through A Typical Day In My Work i divide That day Into Three Parts.

00:24:17: The One Part Are Events I initiate and host regular seminars at masterclasses on a mountain in Innsbruck.

00:24:25: And the next one is with the grandson of the EU founder, Jean Monnet.

00:24:31: So i do these things to always build that bridge between grand conversations let's say on European resilience in Brussels On the One Hand... ...and The Daily Realities & Questions Of People Outside These Capitals.

00:24:47: And the second thing I do is, I raise my voice.

00:25:17: These are projects that sometimes run under the headline of resilience, but more often they're about topics like how can we boost biodiversity care?

00:25:31: How to build so-called living labs in our regions.

00:25:36: How do we boost construction transition towards climate neutrality and overall I think... do these events to produce hope.

00:25:49: I raise my voice, to distribute hope and... ...I do the research-and-practice projects to scale

00:25:56: hope.".

00:25:57: Thank you!

00:25:58: Now Europe as a political project has always been imperfect.. ..and unfinished.

00:26:05: but i think we both agree that it is worth the effort with all the flaws that the European Union has, and all of laws we see in this ecosystem you work in.

00:26:20: And also describe the peripheries of Europe itself... What is it about the European project that fascinates so much as to dedicate your working life or to working within?

00:26:38: There

00:26:39: are three things really fascinating me European project.

00:26:44: On the one hand it's the design, on the other hand its delivery.

00:26:51: and as a third point is the pole position of resilience that Europe has been building in the last thirty years.

00:27:01: so why do I have to say I find the European Union find common solutions in a democratic manner among not just twenty-seven countries, but also an array of different interests and an array cultural and administrative differences that we have between Finland & Spain.

00:27:39: And to me The European Union in its design is really the best ever relationship advice body that we have in our midst, because it shows and showcases every day for so many decades.

00:27:58: That relations and relationships are a decision.

00:28:07: Those are full of crises and moments of pain, sometimes exclusion but at the same time.

00:28:16: The relationship competency that we all need as individuals is really beautifully lived in the European Union In the hallways, in the plenary sessions every day.

00:28:29: And I know many of us only see The conflict and the polarization, because those are moments that make it to our national news in the evening.

00:28:40: And these also an important key part of European Union.

00:28:45: there wouldn't be a democratic system without conflict?

00:28:50: It's gonna say its core element of democracy-to have conflict & to able deal with conflict.

00:28:57: If we look at the European Union from the bird's-eye view after all these decades, it is an amazing showcase of relationship competence and resilience.

00:29:09: So overall The theory of change of supranationality still holds And We do have to respect the daily and democratic cooperation among representatives Of twenty seven different political administrative, social governance cultures.

00:29:30: and what have you.

00:29:32: So the design in itself I think is for a long term.

00:29:38: it's the epitome of sustainability but also resilience because the EU Is built like an earthquake secure high-rise building in Japan meaning It can gently shift when an earthquake comes but it doesn't break.

00:29:59: And that brings me to the second point, why do I see the EU as so effective and efficient despite the odds?

00:30:09: It's their delivery because overall we have to be honest The EU has not only survived all the crises and challenges of past years But actually matured As a problem solver if you think back off the Euro and the financial crisis just some years ago, that profound challenge of enlarging to at-that time twenty eight countries.

00:30:36: If we then look at Brexit if you look at a pandemic climate change biodiversity loss at war We can say yes there are shortcomings and contradictions but overall The EU has matured into a world power in itself And that happened in the last thirty years, without a lot of fanfare around it.

00:31:04: But I think that's quite remarkable.

00:31:07: and third aspect why i am fascinated by European Union especially now is that EU has invested in resilience.

00:31:23: We had the Maastricht Treaty in nineteen ninety two and the maastricht treaty remains.

00:31:28: The basis

00:31:29: of

00:31:29: today's European Union,

00:31:31: just for those who are not familiar with the Maasricht Treaty

00:31:35: what it was designed and devised mainly by Jacques Delors a really great French president of the commission an European policymaker And by designing the Maaastricht Treaties he built the foundations that legal governance foundations of an EU after the fall of the Iron Curtain at the Berlin Wall.

00:31:58: So for an enlarged EU, but also a much more open democratic and citizen-power EU For instance The European Parliament got more rights in the Maastricht Treaty But also in the ensuing treaty changes afterwards.

00:32:20: immense investment in scientific and research programs, like Horizon Europe.

00:32:28: In people-to-people and student mobility programmes Like Erasmus And also the idea of a European citizenship

00:32:38: Yes very important Have

00:32:40: all been enshrined in The Maastricht Treaty.

00:32:43: So we still have to live up To All the possibilities that The Maaastricht treaty holds.

00:32:49: What is clear to me, Is that no US No China.

00:32:55: No Russia have programs like a new European Bauhaus That bring all the players in cities and urban And village contexts around The table on architecture On building on construction on space Biodiversity and people.

00:33:14: None of these world powers has an Erasmus program that allows for so many young people, not just students at the university to discover Europe by living in a different country and studying it at a different University.

00:33:29: For some time none of these countries has this intense cross-university Cross regional cooperation like we have it In all these programs and our regular setups where different regions work together.

00:33:45: May I dive in because is that really true?

00:33:47: Because maybe you don't have that mandated by the state, but traditionally had a very rich philanthropic landscape.

00:33:58: That has been investing across university collaboration exchange programs and so far you've had at least similar structures.

00:34:10: for other ones i cannot say.

00:34:12: But is your argument that in Europe, this actually part of the institutionalized design?

00:34:18: It's a part of an institutionalized decision and investment into something which isn't yet fully harvested or harnessed.

00:34:28: Looking at our world powers from year twenty-twenty six... The US has been dismantling its whole idea system free and open science at universities, they are struggling to keep that spirit up in certain corners of hope.

00:34:46: And you see the EU as one world player who says choose Europe for Science!

00:34:53: And literally the EU right now is the only World Power where science truly is Free & Open.

00:35:02: That's something which has been seen but also respected and preserved in the next long term budget of the EU.

00:35:10: Yes, in the interest We need to further invest into these kind of resilient structures if we don't want, These forces To continue to gain in strength that are seeking to break the European Union apart.

00:35:51: Now what is I know?

00:35:53: That you don't negate these things that are going wrong right.

00:35:58: but so from your perspective What Are maybe the faults?

00:36:03: baby just acknowledge what could Europe be doing better?

00:36:07: Because right now, at least in speaking from a German perspective and here you have a lot of dismantling Of many At least state-funded Programs that go into the resilience of societies.

00:36:21: So what?

00:36:23: From your point of view What is holding us back to be even more resilient?

00:36:28: I don't think there needs to be more investment And i don't We need to invest more in these structures of resilience.

00:36:37: My point is that Europe has invested... ...in infrastructures of resilience, they range from Internet to Horizon Europe,... ..to the Erasmus Programme and New European Bauhaus.

00:36:50: And I have seen people who are pioneers and leaders in any of those programmes also automatically.

00:37:01: important leaders of resilience.

00:37:04: when times get really rough, When a big security crisis hits.

00:37:11: Then it doesn't matter whether you have trained your hope competency Your Hope compass and your Hope condition in architecture or In student exchange program.

00:37:24: but what matters is are You ready for that special leadership off?

00:37:29: That's special situation.

00:37:31: So what I want the EU to do now is undertake a special inventory

00:37:37: of

00:37:37: its investments that it has been undertaking so far and Do something that in German we call innovieren aus dem Bestand heraus meaning you can often innovate from And within the structures, then you have been building by changing not-the-what but by changing how?

00:38:02: do the institutions now work together with players outside of their institution.

00:38:10: Where we need new nodes or networks to make sure that a systemic flow of energy, leadership and so on can be there?

00:38:23: So what I have been doing in recent years?

00:38:29: I connect the European Climate Pact, which is a voluntary programme that i'm part of in the European Commission with the idea of place-based leadership.

00:38:44: And there has been great interest inside institutions to understand somebody who volunteers to act as climate and biodiversity leader is probably also ready to be signed up for a civil defense cause or for a harder security situation that might arise in the next years.

00:39:10: So what I try to say, my dear, Is look now into all these seemingly soft investments That EU has undertaken In all this decades and change from more patronizing relationship, powers and empowered relationships with the non-state actors.

00:39:33: Meaning I would want the EU to change from a more patronising attitude of doing programs to solve the next problems of the EU together.

00:39:58: It feels like... The EU could afford to trust people sometimes a little bit more!

00:40:03: That's beautiful observation, absolutely because I have been active in so many private public or EO-led and other types of practice projects And i realize wherever you don't just go give a keynote an audience, but wherever you go and ask people to help solve a problem they are growing with the challenge.

00:40:35: They're blooming and exhibiting the dignity that they feel when somebody from the national or local institutions asks them.

00:40:53: We see that in a lot of citizen councils, where participants are selected by lottery.

00:41:01: That's it.

00:41:01: nearly all these cases were as citizen council is done right ordinary people who have never been political scientist or will have never worked inside a city hall our amazingly empowered and educated many aspects and walk out from that experience with a completely renewed sense of democracy and citizenship.

00:41:31: Empowerment, self-birth, what's the word?

00:41:34: Efficacy!

00:41:35: The key concept is self efficacy indeed.

00:41:39: so whenever you make people whether these are four year old children or adults, when you make them sense the self-efficacy that they have then they usually start to bloom and blossom.

00:41:51: I have one example i was allowed to design but also help implement the first thirty citizen biotopes across Tirol in the last years.

00:42:04: We invited citizens, local farmers businesses but also mayors to spot and find spaces in their own village.

00:42:15: In the neighborhood that they would want to take special care of.

00:42:20: And uh... They developed under a really great scientific guidance of researchers and scientists thirty biotopes together about seedlings, wildflowers and biodiversity.

00:42:39: But also they told us in many of the feedback conversations how this experience not only boosted their knowledge about nature but also how this really changed their democratic community spirit as an empowerment moment Self-efficacy that many of them haven't experienced in years until the scientists running this project came to invite him.

00:43:13: What you describe I think is shift from again, just drawing out information, and this kind of transactional mindset where you present information.

00:43:29: You present a project with what your going to do without involving affected communities or specialists' experts towards more relationship-building approach that is less extractive but almost sounds like tending the soil and also redefining our relationship with nature, which is so needed when we try to tackle climate change for instance.

00:43:59: So again I love your framework of hope in these three dimensions...

00:44:05: And here comes the key observation.

00:44:08: take the one hundred core participants off the Tyrol citizen biotops in their last few years.

00:44:15: Yes

00:44:17: These are people together with many hundreds others in their villages that have been helping.

00:44:24: These are people who has had a profound experience

00:44:28: of

00:44:29: self-efficacy but also offer renewed sense for nature and the community, And my hypothesis is these people now ready disruptions or crisis coming at their village, our community.

00:44:49: And it doesn't matter!

00:44:51: At the end of day whether you trained hope in biodiversity Or whether your trained hope In green architecture?

00:45:00: Or whether you train hope in a new intercultural exchange among youth.

00:45:07: What matters is that we have to content and have networks country or a community, and you can always bring these networks to life when for instance... ...a security challenge comes at us.

00:45:26: That's why I say every investment in seemingly soft fields of resilience from the student exchange to the Horizon Europe projects.. ..to the Erasmus Plus project, to the Interac whatever have you.

00:45:42: Every investment in these seemingly soft fields of resilience is an investment into the core foundation of a secure Europe.

00:45:54: What you're describing sounds to me like building human infrastructure, investing... You know what?

00:46:00: You just called it Seemingly Soft Investments.

00:46:03: It feels To Me Like Investing In Human Relationships And In Spaces Where Humans Literally go into relation with one another, with projects.

00:46:15: With nature... ...with people who they may have seen before as being the other because they are from a different sector They work in a different Sector or they live in a Different Country?

00:46:27: They speak In A Different Language.

00:46:30: and for me One of those superpowers Of The European Project has always been since the beginning THE INVESTMENT OR THE TRUST in the ability of people to overcome differences that may have prevented them from going into relation with one another before, and believe a future where they live together.

00:46:53: They trade, build projects together or do politics together—that this is even

00:47:00: possible.".

00:47:01: I fully agree!

00:47:02: And i want the relational infrastructure And to be brought into the security conversation that we have in Brussels, both in EU headquarters but also at NATO.

00:47:20: Because so far those absolutely crucial relational infrastructures and civic infrastructures... ...that we had in different topics maybe?

00:47:32: But still running through all their countries' generations regions and so on, are arguably the key to a preventive security culture in Europe.

00:47:46: And are they key to secure and fearless and resilient society over time?

00:47:53: Making that connection is a big dream of mine... ...and bringing the civic resilience investments into the conversation on hard-security preparations is what I deem an urgent and necessary, important task of European policymakers now.

00:48:23: and I'd like to sort of rewind in time.

00:48:37: right now, to the end of The Second World War is really one of the most hope-punk projects that i can think of because if you go back to the End Of The Second world war You had a continent ravaged by two world wars.

00:48:52: You have people who saw each other not as friends but as enemies And then you had A few People Who Believed That A Different Kind Of Future Would Be Possible And one of those people is someone who I know has been inspiring you for many, many years ever since you have been doing this kind of work.

00:49:12: It's Jean Monnet.

00:49:14: Jean Monnets is one the founding fathers of The European Project and what now becomes The European Union.

00:49:22: He was in a second world war.

00:49:27: that was like a diplomat moving between worlds organizing between the English and French in order to coordinate a stronger resistance against Nazi Germany.

00:49:40: But he's also, again... He is one who then orchestrated an European project that included post-war Germany.

00:49:50: Looking at current geopolitical situation What can we learn from Jean Monnet today?

00:49:57: I am really fascinated by Monnet's.

00:50:00: how How did he have impact at the time, right?

00:50:06: Because he was most of the time not in a formal position of power.

00:50:12: He wasn't in political party and was not mandated by governments usually.

00:50:18: He had his most important processes as an entrepreneur or freelancer.

00:50:24: He was son of Cognac merchant didn't finish school based his life and work on his own convictions, and his intention to create conditions for peace.

00:50:39: This is what really guided him And at the same time he was excelling in something I would call deep convening and deep stakeholder engagement To a point where decisive actors are given problems would all share the same diagnosis of the current situation.

00:51:04: So he really convened that key players in the German and French colon steel industry, He came up with this idea as you said to pull what had been The source-of war into a core of peace so coal and steel.

00:51:21: And he brought enemies literally on the table but far away from the microphones you know, from the media for many years until the moment came when in nineteen fifty Jean Monique could present his plan to Robert Schumann.

00:51:40: That was the foreign minister of France at that time.

00:51:43: Shuman decided to run with the idea off basically a forerunner of United Europe and presented what we now known as The Schumund Plan on the ninth of May.

00:51:56: And What is so inspiring For me with this Chamonix is his work in the background.

00:52:03: He's not very well known, he was extremely patient and extremely perseverant guided by his convictions never turned away from problems once there were no progress or even a backlash.

00:52:22: I think that his focus and clarity are really amazing hundred percent influential, but he was also a hundred-percent mightful.

00:52:32: The opposite of toxic masculinity around character and extremely reflected individual pure And again led by this intention to create conditions for peace.

00:52:44: at the moment He had succeeded in a mission.

00:52:48: He often resigned from these positions.

00:52:55: He knew very well what he was good at and important for.

00:53:01: Yeah, again I think it's possible to take your three dimensions of hope.

00:53:09: Jean Monique was someone who acted with competency.

00:53:12: He had a clear moral compass invested a lot of time into navigating a very complex political landscape And he faced a lot resistance But he kept going anyway, and I think it's something that is sometimes forgotten when we talk.

00:53:29: you know complain about how flawed the European Union.

00:53:33: Is how flawed politics?

00:53:35: How everything is looking dark And Everything is You Know things keep Going wrong and Why continue to invest into a Europe That is so flawed and where you have rising populism etc.

00:53:49: etc.

00:53:50: but It was never A given that we would be able to live in freedom, In the first place.

00:53:57: And um... That's why I think it is so interesting To look at Jean Monnier and about his approach Which was also your approach?

00:54:06: ...to political change Today!

00:54:08: In this day-and-age and really realize if We have a chance of building A hopeful positive future which we do not have to descend into authoritarianism and war We can continue to live in peace and Western Europe.

00:54:25: There are places on Eastern Europe that already facing war, but there's always the chance for a future That involves freedom democracy And an upholding of European values.

00:54:38: So I think it is very interesting For you make that connection again To that method of Jean Monnet.

00:54:46: Now if you allow me i would like to wrap up this conversation and ask you the same closing question I asked everyone.

00:54:56: If you were about twenty years old again today in twenty-twenty six, which advice would give yourself?

00:55:03: I think i will dare to face an institutional career applying for European institutions.

00:55:12: at that time when Austria joined the EU seemed like a you know, a monster that I would never be able to master.

00:55:23: And i understand now many years later just how worthwhile it would have been facing that monster because its exactly the creative and innovative personalities who can unfold impact inside institutions.

00:55:40: if they manage find their own workflow and comfort, place in these institutions if they stay for a long time.

00:55:51: If they find mentors along the way or aren't bullied away too early because of their ideas then these intrapreneurs can really learn how to use their unconventional strengths very smartly And in hindsight, or today I would tell my twenty-year old self to face the application tests for the EU institutions even if it means to wear a suit for work.

00:56:26: Or learn how to operate in very strong hierarchical systems.

00:56:35: Thank you very much Verinov!

00:56:37: For your time and all of your wisdom.

00:56:39: Thank you, Michael.

00:56:40: This was incredibly inspiring!

00:56:46: a compass and the condition of resistance.

00:57:15: Verena's framework of hope was new to me, And I appreciated just how applicable it is To so many different contexts in people.

00:57:22: Take the current events In Albania for example.

00:57:25: What may look like A spontaneous movement Verena observed Is actually The result Of decades of patient professional work ahead of this moment By different societal actors.

00:57:37: She compared This current Moment in Albania into when Monday prayer meetings in Eastern Germany had been going on for years before the wall came down, laying the groundwork.

00:57:48: A moment of peaceful rupture she says becomes possible... ...when the right time comes because the soil has been tended for so

00:57:55: long.".

00:57:57: For me that metaphor of tending soil runs through much of what Verena does In her work today.

00:58:03: She seeks to strengthen the resilience of Europe.

00:58:06: Investments in what she calls seemingly soft resilience through EU programs such as Erasmus, Horizon Europe, Interrail or European Bauhaus form a deep foundation of a secure and democratic Europe.

00:58:20: And these kinds of investments should be understood as part of a harder preventive security strategy.

00:58:27: Verena is passionate advocate for the European project.

00:58:31: Conflict she says –or rather management-of conflict.

00:58:36: Upholding constructive dialogue and integrating further along different policy fields as seems necessary in light of current geopolitical developments is a decision, not given.

00:58:48: We spoke briefly about Jean Monnet one the founding fathers of the EU and our role model of Verenas.

00:58:54: He understood this from beginning.

00:58:56: In Verena's framework of hope Monnet had the competence, compass & resistance to envision peace project after decades.

00:59:06: For me, the EU has always been a Hopepunk project and I'd say that Moni was very much in sync with this spirit.

00:59:12: There is still a lot to learn from him today!

00:59:15: And Verena is holding her masterclass on his approach at Innsbruck on June twenty-seventh of twenty-twenty six.

00:59:21: so for anyone interested i'll provide details in show notes.

00:59:25: Thank you for listening to Today's episode of Hopepunk !